Welcome Finance - missold PPI and part of loan

[Dipply75]

Sorry, busy typing like mad!!!

Of course - stick away

[Dipply75]

Hi Alanalana,

I have just looked through the wealth of info on your stickie (omg!) and have to ask a probably very niave question:

What is Insurance Premium Tax? If I paid a single insurance premium, would I have then paid tax on that - would that tax then have to be paid by the broker to HRMC - and therefore traceable?????

[citizenB]

Originally Posted by Dipply75

Hi Alanalana,

I have just looked through the wealth of info on your stickie (omg!) and have to ask a probably very niave question:

What is Insurance Premium Tax? If I paid a single insurance premium, would I have then paid tax on that - would that tax then have to be paid by the broker to HRMC - and therefore traceable?????

Hiya.. Yes, there is a statutory tax on insurance premiums, household,car, ppi. This would have been passed on to HMG to fund their new kitchen expenditure

[Dipply75]

Well well, all this carry on trying to get proof if a policy actually exists or not and whether welcome actually paid an insurer on your behalf...and in the middle of all that there is this tax that would have to be paid to the tax man (spit!), which would have to be completely traceable.

How n the hell do I go about finding that out??????

Excuse me for thinking out loud but:

If welcome are only the broker, I assume the tax liability is with the insurer the premium is paid to........but what if (just conjecture here) they werent paying anyone premuims and just running the insurance themselves, in house. How would the tax man (spit!) get his money. It would look a bit strange it coming direct from welcome.

Does anyone see where I am going with this train of thought?

[benjy48]

Hello,
I had a recent (december 07) sec loan from welcome. I noticed recently that there insurances that you take out have added interest to them on the loan.
My payments, becuase this is joint amount to £449 a month, and the increase was because of charging interest on these insurances.
is this right?

	Are you letting your bank keep your money Are you giving away thousands of pounds?? Many people aren't claiming all of the money they are entitled to when they make their bank charges claims. You have been forced to pay unfair bank charges. Have you forgotten that your bank has charged you inteest on those charges? If you are overdrawn and the bank owes you charges - then your overdraft is made up of charges - money which you bank owes you. Yet you are paying interest to the bank - on your own money!!! Follow this link to see the discussions on this. You might even double th size of your claim.

[Dipply75]

well usually with the welcome insurances it is a single premium upfront that is paid to the insurer on your behalf, which is then added to your loan so you pay interest on it.

But this should have been explained to you when you took the insurance (lol) - did you want the insurance? Was it in a branch on on the phone that you took the loan?

	Are you letting your bank keep your money Are you giving away thousands of pounds?? Many people aren't claiming all of the money they are entitled to when they make their bank charges claims. You have been forced to pay unfair bank charges. Have you forgotten that your bank has charged you inteest on those charges? If you are overdrawn and the bank owes you charges - then your overdraft is made up of charges - money which you bank owes you. Yet you are paying interest to the bank - on your own money!!! Follow this link to see the discussions on this. You might even double th size of your claim.

[leedspete]

welcome still havent cancelled my ppi at all what do i do next

[alanalana]

hello diply,

late reply but here is the site to explain insurance premium tax.

http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsP...HMCE_CL_001224

hope you find what you need here

aa

[Dipply75]

Thanks for that Alanalana, that was just what I was looking for

Now, I am not trying to 'take the proverbial' but I have posted the complaint letter that is being sent. Anyone can read it if they are that bored and have 3 hours to spare I think I got a bit mixed up between writing in the 1st, 2nd and third persons!

Um, anyone think I may have kicked the backside out of it a bit? My main worry is giving them too much info.......

Dipply75 and OH

02 July 2008

Branch Manager
Welcome Finance

Dear Sir/Madam

Ref: Account No 1748259 and 1395911

Further to my letter dated 19th June 2008, please find enclosed the detailed complaint as advised. Thank you for your being patient and allowing us the time to get advice and put this complaint together. Please note, there are complaints from myself and Dipply75 but due to the nature of some of them, it has been necessary to submit this letter together.

Complaints

1 – Final Response Letter
I thank you for your prompt response dated 20th June 2008 confirming that this account is in dispute and all communication will be in writing, however, I am confused by the content of this letter and would ask for clarification. Your letter states it is a Final Response to the complaint, yet the complaint was not included. You then state that you have reviewed all outstanding issues, (by which I can only assume you mean the contact made to OH’s workplace) yet do not state the outcome of this investigation. You then close by advising of the standard 8 week period for closing the complaint. I have a copy of your complaints procedure and we should only be at the start of this process, not the end.

I must add that despite your letter confirming that all communication will be in writing and that you are awaiting the complaint – a letter was sent by ‘salesperson’, dated 27th June, stating he has been trying to contact OH regarding the account and asking him to telephone the office at his earliest convenience. As previously warned, any attempted harassment by your staff will not be tolerated and I have serious concerns regarding ‘salespersons’ behaviour since dealing this account in such a short space of time. If your staff continue to try and contact OH or attempt to induce phone calls, complaints will be made to Trading Standards and any other regulatory bodies without further notice.

Please clarify:

• What stage of Welcome’s complaints procedure have we reached
• Which outstanding issues have been investigated and the outcomes

2 – Direct Debits and Staff Behaviour
Regarding the Direct Debit for OH’s account 12345, this was Welcome’s error in not collecting these payments. 3 months then passed with no attempted contact whatsoever with OH to advise of mounting arrears. Then your advisor, muppet, contacted OH’s workplace (see complaint 3), OH directly and stated:

• He could not put the account in dispute
• Threatened to visit OH’s home and when told he did not have permission, made the assertion that if he is collecting a debt he is entitled to visit anytime.
• Tried emotional blackmail to try and secure some payment arrangement despite the account being disputed – stating he was being pressured as his bosses needed answers, it was out of his hands etc.

I believe this to be against The Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 and the OFT guidance on Debt Collection. You member of staff, muppet, has still attempted to speak with OH after agreeing all contact would be in writing and the account is in dispute.
Please clarify:

• Are your staff are trained to understand and comply with their responsibilities under the OFT guidance on debt collection, The Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 and the FLA Lending Code, if so, why was such misleading information given and such unfair pressure applied by your advisor.
• Why were no payments taken for the agreed Direct Debit for over 3 months?
• Why was there no attempted contact with OH until there were substantial arrears?
• Has OH’s credit file been marked with late payments of any kind in relation to this account?

3 – Contacting OH’s workplace
As there has been no response to this as yet:
I am extremely concerned at the motive behind contacting my workplace before attempting to make any contact with me personally regarding Welcome Finances mistake with the Direct Debit and the resulting outstanding balance. Had a single letter been sent or phone call been made to me directly I would have answered promptly, as you will see from your records, I have always done. Therefore the only reason I can assume from your actions was to publicly embarrass me for no apparent reason. As my position at work requires a large amount of trust and various security requirements, you have risked my employment and caused embarrassing questions to be asked by my employer by implying I have debts I am hiding from (creditor having to resort to contacting employer raises this implication alone).

Please clarify:

• Are your staff are trained to understand and comply with their responsibilities under the OFT guidance on debt collection and the Data Protection Act 1998, and if so, what was the purpose of this contact?
• Please confirm your reasons for this action and what was discussed when you contacted OH’s workplace, which he will confirm with his employer.

4 – Breach of Dipply75’s rights under the Data Protection Act 1998 - Accounts ????? and ?????
In January 2005 OH visited your branch for a personal loan. Your salesperson, Orogonal Muppet, stated that OH had a very good credit rating and was accepted for a loan. She then stated there was, however, a slight problem as it was ‘company policy’ that there could not be 2 loans at one address and then asked OH who Dipply75 was to him. More than a bit surprised he told her that was his girlfriend. Your salesperson then told OH that Dipply75 had a current loan with Welcome but said it would not be an issue as long as OH paid off the balance of Dipply’s account (Account No ??????), which could be included in his new loan amount. She then proceeded to tell OH every detail about the existing loan, how much was borrowed and when, how much the payments were and the outstanding balance! When OH questioned being allowed access to my account, your salesperson stated that Dipply had signed an agreement which allowed Welcome to pass her details onto third parties if required for account management (very plausible sounding to anyone unfamiliar with the Data Protection Act)

OH was not aware that I had borrowing with Welcome and was extremely upset that he had to pay off my loan to proceed with his own. I was also extremely embarrassed that, essentially, OH was now paying off my borrowing at a very high cost. This has caused stress and hardships in the relationship, and is still a source of tension. Now, after taking advice, I realise that my rights under the Data Protection Act have been seriously breached, and then used for fraudulent purposes. Your salesperson completely divulged my personal and private financial information to a third party without my consent or knowledge. She openly passed full details of my financial borrowing with Welcome to a new customer sitting in your branch, purely on the basis that he lived at the same address and could have been my partner, and who, quite frankly, could have been anyone. I am shocked and disgusted that my private information, when entrusted with a company of your size and standing, has been so unsecure, and that my rights and your obligations under the Data Protection Act were so clearly ignored. These actions have been damaging OH and myself and the Data Protection Act allows me to seek compensation from you through the County Courts, this is also an option which I would also consider.

Please clarify:

• Does such a company policy exist and, if so, what guidelines and procedures are in place to deal with the obvious Data Protection and privacy issues which would arise from such a policy?
• Please provide a copy of the fair processing notice to comply with such a company policy
• If such a company policy does not exist please explain your salespersons reasons for divulging my information in this way
• Are your staff are trained to understand and comply with their responsibilities under the the Data Protection Act 1998 and the FLA Lending Code, and if so, what reasons did your salesperson have for divulging my information that did not breach my right under this act?

5 - Fraudulent and Deceitful Behaviour of Staff – Accounts ?????? and ??????
After contacting numerous Welcome branches and enquiring on your helpline we can find no trace of, and no one is aware of, such a company policy. We can only assume that your staff breached Dipplys rights under the Data Protection Act and then used deceitful tactics to mislead OH into borrowing a further £1368.19 over 36 months – and therefore substantial profit for Welcome and your salesperson – fraudulently. Your salesperson clearly stated that OH was unable to obtain his loan without agreeing to this extra borrowing and payment protection insurance with Welcome Finance (see complaint 7) There is further evidence of your salesperson’s lack of clarity when dealing with these accounts in the statements provided.
The statement provided shows on 13/01/2005:

• Initial Disbursement £4637.86 including:
• Acceptance Fee £ 75.00
• Insurance £1094.67

This leaves a total of £3468.19 disbursed to customer, implying this is what OH actually borrowed, when he actually borrowed £2100 – there is no record of £1368.19 applied to settle account no (Dipplys). Being aware of accounting practices I find this particularly strange as there is no cross reference of monies moving from one account to settle another.

This is again repeated in a statement supplied by your branch on 27 November 2006.
The breakdown of the statement shows:

• Disbursal of Fees £ 75.00
• Insurance Premium Advanced £1094.67
• Loan Disbursed to Customer £3468.19

Again, no official accounting reference to funds being used to settle account 1???????. In fact the only reference we can ascertain to date is Dipply’s account no scribbled on OH subsequent loan agreement.

Please clarify:

• What accounting entry was placed on Dipplys account (ref ?????) for settlement and was any reference made to where the funds came from?
• Is it normal accounting procedure not to cross reference specific transactions from one account to another (which I understand is normally required to trace the movement of money in any companies accounts)
• Please clarify if your salesperson received any extra commission, received any bonus (whether part of an overall monthly scheme or not) or any financial reward for obtaining this extra borrowing.
• Please advise if Welcome has any explanation or comment on the serious concerns we have raised and advise on what procedures are in place to supervise and safeguard against such potential behaviour?

6 – Mis-sold part of Loan – Account ???????
Further to complaints 4 and 5 OH was mis-sold part of this personal loan due to the misleading advice, information and a fabricated company policy. Your salesperson deliberately OH into borrowing and extra £1368.19 over an extra 36 months which goes against the responsible lending code OH’s basic rights and brings into doubt your fitness to hold a Consumer Credit Licence.

Please clarify:

• How much financial loss has OH suffered due the mis-selling of £1368.19 over a further 36 months at 42.6% contractual interest?

7 – Mis-sold PPI – Account ??????
When your salesperson gave the agreement to OH to sign he questioned the Payment Protection Insurance already included in the agreement. He told your salesperson that he could get insurance from his bank that would cover this existing bank loan and this Welcome loan at a much lower cost. Your salesperson then stated that OH could not get the loan without purchasing this Insurance from Welcome – and was told again that this was ‘company policy’. The explanation given, again sounded very plausible and obviously rehearsed, was: “As we generally lend to people with poor credit ratings we take more risk, so we must ensure that adequate insurance is in place, for your protection and ours”. OH relied on the advice of your salesperson in good faith and we have now discovered that he was misled into purchasing this extremely expensive insurance. At no time were any related health questions asked or any checks done on the suitability of this insurance for OH. We understand that your salesperson may receive commission for selling this policy – therefore, if your salesperson has a financial interest in the sale, the advice given could not be impartial or in OH best interests. We also understand that Welcome Finance is a member of the Finance and Leasing Association and you subscribe to their codes of practice which states:

3.2 Before you take out payment protection insurance,
or at the time you take it out, we will give you
the following information to help you to decide
if the policy is suitable for you.
◗ The name of the insurer.
◗ A summary of cover, which will explain what
the product is, the cost, and the key benefits,
exclusions and eligibility criteria (conditions).
◗ The term of your insurance cover.
◗ Any qualifying periods or excess payments or
periods needed before you can make a claim.
◗ How to make a claim and who to contact if
you make a claim that is disputed.
◗ If and when you may cancel your insurance
policy, and what action you need to take to
do this.
This information will help to explain if the policy
is suitable for you if you are self-employed, on
contract or part-time work, or if you have a medical
condition that you had been diagnosed with
before you took out this insurance.
Documentation
3.3 Once you have taken out insurance, we will give
you a copy of your policy or certificate of
insurance within 21 days, with a contact phone
number for any questions you may have.

Absolutely no discussion regarding the Insurance took place other than the requirement to purchase it. No documentation, either a summary of cover at the time or a policy afterwards was ever received, and the Insurer is still anonymous. As the Insurer is also responsible for the advice given for any policy sold on their behalf we are entitled to complain directly to them also – as well as the Insurer being a joint data controller.

Please Clarify:

• Who the Insurer is.
• Was your salesperson qualified to give advice and sell Insurance?
• Did your salesperson receive any commission or financial benefit from the sale of this insurance policy?
• Do you have a copy of the Insurance policy, and if so, please provide one.

8 – Breakdown of Early Settlement Statement – Account ??????
OH was misled into settling my loan account as per Complaints 5 & 6. As I was never obviously never given the opportunity to see the settlement figure or how this figure was calculated, I dispute the amount quoted and used.

Please Clarify:

• How the settlement figure of £1368.19 was calculated, including a breakdown of this calculation
• How the rebate of PPI in that figure was calculated (as per the FLA lending code)

9 – Fees added to OH Account - ???????
After receiving the statements requested it is apparent that there are a number of fees added to this account which have been applied in error. There are various £5 fees added for, we can only assume, are phone calls, which were either never made or completely unnecessary, a prime example being your letter dated 27th June 2008. There are also a number of £10 fees added to the account from March 2008 onwards when there was NO attempt at contacted.

The £20 ‘returned direct debit’ charges levied are not a true reflection of the costs involved for this ‘service’, therefore we consider these fees are an unfair and unlawful penalty under the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts 1999. We also note from the Statements that if a fee has been applied after an interest posting, the interest is then reversed and reposted after the applied charge – therefore creating a higher interest charge to the account! We are extremely concerned about this and the implications it raises.

Please clarify:

• Why fees for contacts have been added to the account when no contact has been made or even attempted?
• Why are interest postings reversed and re-posted to ensure the inclusion of added fees thus causing higher interest to be charged to the account?

10 – Early Settlement Statement – Account ??????
I have concerns regarding the calculations shown on the early settlement statement supplied in response to my request, which I will ask Trading Standards to examine in the meantime. The rebate for PPI shows as £9.86, from a policy costing over £1000 initially and substantially more after interest applied, which frankly I find ridiculous and wonder how this sum was worked out. The ‘Less Amount you have paid’ is incorrect by over £400 – which I have calculated from your own statement supplied to me. You also state you will remove your charge secured on the property – please note this is an unsecured loan.
I am also concerned that as the contract states payments £212.43 per month yet OH pays weekly, meaning the loan would be paid off approx 12 weeks earlier, therefore less interest would be payable overall. Has this been taken into account when calculating the settlement figure? There is also my concern about the actual calculation used – if the Rule of 78 was used, this is outdated, wrong and every financial institution is aware of this.

Please Clarify:

• How the rebate for PPI was calculated (as per the FLA lending code)
• Please confirm where you obtained the figure of £5882.10 for Amount paid
• Please clarify if the weekly vs monthly payments would affect the early settlement figure and, if so, has this been taken into account.
• Please clarify which calculation was used to calculate this overall statement, was it the Rule of 78?

11 – Acceptance Fee – Account ???????
I note from the statement supplied that, although in my agreement the Acceptance Fee is listed separately from the total charge for credit as it should be, on the statement supplied it is shown as added to initial ‘total amount of credit’ (£4562.86) to make the higher amount of (4637.86) which interest is then calculated on.
This implies I am paying interest on the acceptance fee, which I do not believe I should be.

Please Clarify:

• Is interest being charged on the Acceptance Fee of £75?

12 – Non Compliance with Acts of Law, Guidelines and Codes of Practice – Accounts 1748259 and 1395911

Throughout these complaints there has been absolute disregard for the OFT guidelines on debt collection, fair trading, responsible lending, the FLA Lending Code, the Data Protection Act 1998, the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts 1999, the Consumer Protection for Unfair Trading Regulations 2008, the Common Law act of Fraud (Scotland) and the standard of behaviour and integrity that I would expect from a company of such size, reputation and standing, especially a company that subscribes to the FLA Lending code and is a member, which implies a consumer can place trust in that companies advice, behaviour and financial dealings.

11.1 We have a Code Compliance Officer and our
internal auditing procedures make sure we meet
(comply with) the code. We have to fill in an
‘annual statement of compliance’ as a condition
of our membership of the FLA.

Please Clarify:

• Who is your Code Compliance Officer and their contact details
• What internal auditing procedures are in place at your branch to ensure the code is complied with, and why they have failed on these occasions?

What we require

Complaint 1
Answers to the points requiring clarification
Confirmation that your staff, including muppet, will not attempt any further verbal discussion with OH
Complaint 2 and 3
Answers to the points requiring clarification
Investigation and appropriate measures then taken
An Apology

Complaint 4
Answers to the points requiring clarification
Investigation and appropriate measures then taken
An Apology
For the distress and subsequent upset this caused me I feel compensation is due. I am willing to accept an appropriate offer of goodwill from Welcome.

Complaint 5
Answers to the points requiring clarification
Investigation and appropriate measures then taken
An Apology

Complaint 6
Answers to the points requiring clarification
Investigation and appropriate measures then taken
An Apology
OH should not be left at a financial disadvantage. A full refund for the amount I expect Welcome to clarify as part of this complaint.

Complaint 7
Answers to the points requiring clarification
Investigation and appropriate measures then taken
An Apology
A full refund of the Insurance premium charged plus contractual interest at 42.6% to date – please confirm the total amount.

Complaint 8
Answers to the points requiring clarification
Investigation and appropriate measures then taken

Complaint 9
Answers to the points requiring clarification
Investigation and appropriate measures then taken
A full refund of all fees applied to this account, including the contractual interest as 42.6% (from which your staff even reversed and re-posted interest postings to ensure maximum interest was applied to every charge).

Complaints 10, 11 and 12
Answers to the points requiring clarification
Investigation and appropriate measures then taken

In summary:
Please confirm receipt of this complaint.
Please thoroughly investigate each complaint and the issues involved.
Please respond to ALL points requiring clarification and provide documentation where relevant.
** If you are unable to answer any particular point asked or provide any of the documents requested please confirm this in writing, along with your reasons.

We understand that due to the quantity of complaints we have raised it may take some time to look into, and considering some of the serious issues raised we realise you will want to investigate fully, however I would point out that, within keeping with your Complaints Procedure, we would expect at least an update within 28 days. Please ensure we are kept up to date with your progress.

We look forward to your earliest response,

Yours sincerely

OH
Dipply75

Going by the pathetic letter they sent me, I doubt they'll even understand it

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	The Direct Debit Guarantee • The Guarantee is offered by all Banks and Building Societies that take part in the Direct Debit Scheme. The efficiency and security of the Scheme is monitored and protected by your own Bank or Building Society. • If the amounts to be paid or the payment dates change, we will notify you three working days in advance of your account being debited or as otherwise agreed. • If an error is made by us or by your Bank or Building Society, you are guaranteed a full and immediate refund from your branch of the amount paid. • You can cancel a Direct Debit at any time by writing your Bank or Building Society. Please also send a copy of your letter to us. This is a term of your banking contract and you can sue on it.

	Debt collection library Follow this link to our debt collection library. This library contains templates and advice for dealing with debt collectors who act oppressively or unfairly. This library is work in progress and will be built up over the next few weeks. 17.03.09

	Disputed account materials Follow this link to our library of materials to help you try to deal with the problems of defaults on disputed accounts. It is contrary to Information Commissioner guidelines and also contrary to the banking code to default disputed accounts. However, it happens all the time.

	Are you letting your bank keep your money Are you giving away thousands of pounds?? Many people aren't claiming all of the money they are entitled to when they make their bank charges claims. You have been forced to pay unfair bank charges. Have you forgotten that your bank has charged you inteest on those charges? If you are overdrawn and the bank owes you charges - then your overdraft is made up of charges - money which you bank owes you. Yet you are paying interest to the bank - on your own money!!! Follow this link to see the discussions on this. You might even double th size of your claim.

[citizenB]

Originally Posted by leedspete

welcome still havent cancelled my ppi at all what do i do next

If you start your own thread and detail what you have done so far. People will be able to help you further, tailoring any replies to your specific needs.

[citizenB]

Originally Posted by Dipply75

Thanks for that Alanalana, that was just what I was looking for

Now, I am not trying to 'take the proverbial' but I have posted the complaint letter that is being sent. Anyone can read it if they are that bored and have 3 hours to spare I think I got a bit mixed up between writing in the 1st, 2nd and third persons!

Um, anyone think I may have kicked the backside out of it a bit? My main worry is giving them too much info.......

Dipply75 and OH

02 July 2008

Branch Manager
Welcome Finance

Dear Sir/Madam

Ref: Account No 1748259 and 1395911

Further to my letter dated 19th June 2008, please find enclosed the detailed complaint as advised. Thank you for your being patient and allowing us the time to get advice and put this complaint together. Please note, there are complaints from myself and Dipply75 but due to the nature of some of them, it has been necessary to submit this letter together.

Complaints

1 – Final Response Letter
I thank you for your prompt response dated 20th June 2008 confirming that this account is in dispute and all communication will be in writing, however, I am confused by the content of this letter and would ask for clarification. Your letter states it is a Final Response to the complaint, yet the complaint was not included. You then state that you have reviewed all outstanding issues, (by which I can only assume you mean the contact made to OH’s workplace) yet do not state the outcome of this investigation. You then close by advising of the standard 8 week period for closing the complaint. I have a copy of your complaints procedure and we should only be at the start of this process, not the end.

I must add that despite your letter confirming that all communication will be in writing and that you are awaiting the complaint – a letter was sent by ‘salesperson’, dated 27th June, stating he has been trying to contact OH regarding the account and asking him to telephone the office at his earliest convenience. As previously warned, any attempted harassment by your staff will not be tolerated. (removed and)

I have serious concerns regarding ‘salespersons’ behaviour since dealing this account in such a short space of time. < <(this sentence doesnt make sense to me ) If your staff continue to try and contact OH or attempt to induce phone calls, complaints will be made to Trading Standards and any other regulatory bodies without further notice.

Please clarify:

• What stage of Welcome’s complaints procedure have we reached
• Which outstanding issues have been investigated and the outcomes

2 – Direct Debits and Staff Behaviour
Regarding the Direct Debit for OH’s account 12345, this was Welcome’s error in not collecting these payments. 3 months then passed with no attempted contact whatsoever with OH to advise of mounting arrears. Then your advisor, muppet, contacted OH’s workplace (see complaint 3), OH directly and stated:

• He could not put the account in dispute
• Threatened to visit OH’s home and when told he did not have permission, made the assertion that if he is collecting a debt he is entitled to visit anytime.
• Tried emotional blackmail to try and secure some payment arrangement despite the account being disputed – stating he was being pressured as his bosses needed answers, it was out of his hands etc.

I believe this to be against The Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 and the OFT guidance on Debt Collection. After agreeing the account is in dispute and all contact will be in writing, your staff member, continues to make attempts at verbal contact with OH. <<(I have tidied that up a bit, although others might be able to make a better job)
Please clarify:

• Are your staff trained to understand and comply with their responsibilities under the OFT guidance on debt collection, The Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 and the FLA Lending Code, if so, why was such misleading information given and such unfair pressure applied by your advisor.
• Why were no payments taken for the agreed Direct Debit for over 3 months?
• Why was there no attempted contact with OH until there were substantial arrears?
• Has OH’s credit file been marked with late payments of any kind in relation to this account?

3 – Contacting OH’s workplace
There has been no response to this as yet:
I am extremely concerned at the motive behind contacting my workplace before attempting to make any contact with me personally regarding Welcome Finances mistake with the Direct Debit and the resulting outstanding balance. Had a single letter been sent or phone call been made to me directly I would have answered promptly, as you will see from your records, I have always done. Therefore the only reason I can assume from your actions was to publicly embarrass me for no apparent reason. As my position at work requires a large amount of trust and various security requirements, you have risked my employment and caused embarrassing questions to be asked by my employer by implying I have debts I am hiding from (creditor having to resort to contacting employer raises this implication alone). I would use OH's name throughout.
Please clarify:

• Are your staff trained to understand and comply with their responsibilities under the OFT guidance on debt collection and the Data Protection Act 1998, and if so, what was the purpose of this contact?
• Please confirm your reasons for this action and what was discussed when you contacted OH’s workplace, which he will confirm with his employer.

4 – Breach of Dipply75’s rights under the Data Protection Act 1998 - Accounts ????? and ?????
In January 2005 OH visited your branch for a personal loan. Your salesperson, Orogonal Muppet, stated that OH had a very good credit rating and was accepted for a loan. She then stated there was, however, a slight problem as it was ‘company policy’ that there could not be 2 loans at one address and then asked OH who Dipply75 was to him. More than a bit surprised he told her that was his girlfriend. Your salesperson then told OH that Dipply75 had a current loan with Welcome but said it would not be an issue as long as OH paid off the balance of Dipply’s account (Account No ??????), which could be included in his new loan amount. She then proceeded to tell OH every detail about the existing loan, how much was borrowed and when, how much the payments were and the outstanding balance! When OH questioned being allowed access to my account, your salesperson stated that Dipply had signed an agreement which allowed Welcome to pass her details onto third parties if required for account management (very plausible sounding to anyone unfamiliar with the Data Protection Act)

OH was not aware that I had borrowing with Welcome and was extremely upset that he had to pay off my loan to proceed with his own. I was also extremely embarrassed that, essentially, OH was now paying off my borrowing at a very high cost. This has caused stress and hardships in the relationship, and is still a source of tension. Now, after taking advice, I realise that my rights under the Data Protection Act have been seriously breached, and then used for fraudulent purposes. Your salesperson completely divulged my personal and private financial information to a third party without my consent or knowledge. She openly passed full details of my financial borrowing with Welcome to a new customer sitting in your branch, purely on the basis that he lived at the same address and could have been my partner, and who, quite frankly, could have been anyone. I am shocked and disgusted that my private information, when entrusted with a company of your size and standing, has been so unsecure, and that my rights and your obligations under the Data Protection Act were so clearly ignored. These actions have been damaging OH and myself and the Data Protection Act allows me to seek compensation from you through the County Courts, this is also an option which I would also consider.

Please clarify:

• Does such a company policy exist and, if so, what guidelines and procedures are in place to deal with the obvious Data Protection and privacy issues which would arise from such a policy?
• Please provide a copy of the fair processing notice to comply with such a company policy
• If such a company policy does not exist please explain your salespersons reasons for divulging my information in this way
• Are your staff are trained to understand and comply with their responsibilities under the the Data Protection Act 1998 and the FLA Lending Code, and if so, what reasons did your salesperson have for divulging my information that did not breach my right under this act?

5 - Fraudulent and Deceitful Behaviour of Staff – Accounts ?????? and ??????
After contacting numerous Welcome branches and enquiring on your helpline we can find no trace of, and no one is aware of, such a company policy. We can only assume that your staff breached Dipplys rights under the Data Protection Act and then used deceitful tactics to mislead OH into borrowing a further £1368.19 over 36 months – and therefore substantial profit for Welcome and your salesperson – fraudulently. Your salesperson clearly stated that OH was unable to obtain his loan without agreeing to this extra borrowing and payment protection insurance with Welcome Finance (see complaint 7) There is further evidence of your salesperson’s lack of clarity when dealing with these accounts in the statements provided.
The statement provided shows on 13/01/2005:

• Initial Disbursement £4637.86 including:
• Acceptance Fee £ 75.00
• Insurance £1094.67

This leaves a total of £3468.19 disbursed to customer, implying this is what OH actually borrowed, when he actually borrowed £2100 – there is no record of £1368.19 applied to settle account no (Dipplys). Being aware of accounting practices I find this particularly strange as there is no cross reference of monies moving from one account to settle another.

This is again repeated in a statement supplied by your branch on 27 November 2006.
The breakdown of the statement shows:

• Disbursal of Fees £ 75.00
• Insurance Premium Advanced £1094.67
• Loan Disbursed to Customer £3468.19

Again, no official accounting reference to funds being used to settle account 1???????. In fact the only reference we can ascertain to date is Dipply’s account no scribbled on OH subsequent loan agreement.

Please clarify:

• What accounting entry was placed on Dipplys account (ref ?????) for settlement and was any reference made to where the funds came from?
• Is it normal accounting procedure not to cross reference specific transactions from one account to another (which I understand is normally required to trace the movement of money in any companies accounts)
• Please clarify if your salesperson received any extra commission, received any bonus (whether part of an overall monthly scheme or not) or any financial reward for obtaining this extra borrowing.
• Please advise if Welcome has any explanation or comment on the serious concerns we have raised and advise on what procedures are in place to supervise and safeguard against such potential behaviour?

6 – Mis-sold part of Loan – Account ???????
Further to complaints 4 and 5 OH was mis-sold part of this personal loan due to the misleading advice, information and a fabricated company policy. Your salesperson deliberately pressured OH into borrowing an extra £1368.19 over an extra 36 months which goes against the responsible lending code, OH’s basic rights and brings into doubt your fitness to hold a Consumer Credit Licence.

Please clarify:

• How much financial loss has OH suffered due the mis-selling of £1368.19 over a further 36 months at 42.6% contractual interest?

7 – Mis-sold PPI – Account ??????
When your salesperson gave the agreement to OH to sign he questioned the Payment Protection Insurance already included in the agreement. He told your salesperson that he could get insurance from his bank that would cover this existing bank loan and this Welcome loan at a much lower cost. Your salesperson then stated that OH could not get the loan without purchasing this Insurance from Welcome – and was told again that this was ‘company policy’. The explanation given, again sounded very plausible and obviously rehearsed, was: “As we generally lend to people with poor credit ratings we take more risk, so we must ensure that adequate insurance is in place, for your protection and ours”. OH relied on the advice of your salesperson in good faith and we have now discovered that he was misled into purchasing this extremely expensive insurance. At no time were any related health questions asked or any checks done on the suitability of this insurance for OH. We understand that your salesperson may receive commission for selling this policy – therefore, if your salesperson has a financial interest in the sale, the advice given could not be impartial or in OH best interests. We also understand that Welcome Finance is a member of the Finance and Leasing Association and you subscribe to their codes of practice which states:

3.2 Before you take out payment protection insurance,
or at the time you take it out, we will give you
the following information to help you to decide
if the policy is suitable for you.
◗ The name of the insurer.
◗ A summary of cover, which will explain what
the product is, the cost, and the key benefits,
exclusions and eligibility criteria (conditions).
◗ The term of your insurance cover.
◗ Any qualifying periods or excess payments or
periods needed before you can make a claim.
◗ How to make a claim and who to contact if
you make a claim that is disputed.
◗ If and when you may cancel your insurance
policy, and what action you need to take to
do this.
This information will help to explain if the policy
is suitable for you if you are self-employed, on
contract or part-time work, or if you have a medical
condition that you had been diagnosed with
before you took out this insurance.
Documentation
3.3 Once you have taken out insurance, we will give
you a copy of your policy or certificate of
insurance within 21 days, with a contact phone
number for any questions you may have.

Absolutely no discussion regarding the Insurance took place other than the requirement to purchase it. No documentation, either a summary of cover at the time or a policy afterwards was ever received, and the Insurer is still anonymous. As the Insurer is also responsible for the advice given for any policy sold on their behalf we are entitled to complain directly to them also – as well as the Insurer being a joint data controller.

Please Clarify:

• Who the Insurer is.
• Was your salesperson qualified to give advice and sell Insurance?
• Did your salesperson receive any commission or financial benefit from the sale of this insurance policy?
• Do you have a copy of the Insurance policy, and if so, please provide one.

8 – Breakdown of Early Settlement Statement – Account ??????
OH was misled into settling my loan account as per Complaints 5 & 6. As I was obviously never given the opportunity to see the settlement figure or how this figure was calculated, I dispute the amount quoted and used.

Please Clarify:

• How the settlement figure of £1368.19 was calculated, including a breakdown of this calculation
• How the rebate of PPI in that figure was calculated (as per the FLA lending code)

9 – Fees added to OH Account - ???????
After receiving the statements requested it is apparent that there are a number of fees added to this account which have been applied in error. There are various £5 fees added for, what we can only assume, are phone calls, which were either never made or completely unnecessary, a prime example being your letter dated 27th June 2008. There are also a number of £10 fees added to the account from March 2008 onwards when there was NO attempt at contact.

The £20 ‘returned direct debit’ charges levied are not a true reflection of the costs involved for this ‘service’, therefore we consider these fees are an unfair and unlawful penalty under the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts 1999. We also note from the Statements that if a fee has been applied after an interest posting, the interest is then reversed and reposted after the applied charge – therefore creating a higher interest charge to the account! We are extremely concerned about this and the implications it raises.

Please clarify:

• Why fees for contacts have been added to the account when no contact has been made or even attempted?
• Why are interest postings reversed and re-posted to ensure the inclusion of added fees thus causing higher interest to be charged to the account?

10 – Early Settlement Statement – Account ??????
I have concerns regarding the calculations shown on the early settlement statement supplied in response to my request, which I will ask (Trading Standards) <<( Should that be Financial Ombudsman ) to examine in the meantime. The rebate for PPI shows as £9.86, from a policy costing over £1000 initially and substantially more after interest applied, which frankly I find ridiculous and wonder how this sum was worked out. The ‘Less Amount you have paid’ is incorrect by over £400 – which I have calculated from your own statement supplied to me. You also state you will remove your charge secured on the property – please note this is an unsecured loan.
I am also concerned that as the contract states payments £212.43 per month yet OH pays weekly, meaning the loan would be paid off approx 12 weeks earlier, therefore less interest would be payable overall. Has this been taken into account when calculating the settlement figure? There is also my concern about the actual calculation used – if the Rule of 78 was used, this is outdated, wrong and every financial institution is aware of this.

Please Clarify:

• How the rebate for PPI was calculated (as per the FLA lending code)
• Please confirm where you obtained the figure of £5882.10 for Amount paid
• Please clarify if the weekly vs monthly payments would affect the early settlement figure and, if so, has this been taken into account.
• Please clarify which calculation was used to calculate this overall statement, was it the Rule of 78?

11 – Acceptance Fee – Account ???????
I note from the statement supplied that, although in my agreement the Acceptance Fee is listed separately from the total charge for credit as it should be, on the statement supplied it is shown as added to initial ‘total amount of credit’ (£4562.86) to make the higher amount of (4637.86) which interest is then calculated on.
This implies I am paying interest on the acceptance fee, which I do not believe I should be.

Please Clarify:

• Is interest being charged on the Acceptance Fee of £75?

12 – Non Compliance with Acts of Law, Guidelines and Codes of Practice – Accounts 1748259 and 1395911

Throughout these complaints there has been absolute disregard for the OFT guidelines on debt collection, fair trading, responsible lending, the FLA Lending Code, the Data Protection Act 1998, the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts 1999, the Consumer Protection for Unfair Trading Regulations 2008, the Common Law act of Fraud (Scotland) and the standard of behaviour and integrity that I would expect from a company of such size, reputation and standing, especially a company that subscribes to the FLA Lending code and is a member, which implies a consumer can place trust in that companies advice, behaviour and financial dealings.

11.1 We have a Code Compliance Officer and our
internal auditing procedures make sure we meet
(comply with) the code. We have to fill in an
‘annual statement of compliance’ as a condition
of our membership of the FLA.

Please Clarify:

• Who is your Code Compliance Officer and their contact details
• What internal auditing procedures are in place at your branch to ensure the code is complied with, and why they have failed on these occasions?

What we require

Complaint 1
Answers to the points requiring clarification
Confirmation that your staff, including muppet, will not attempt any further verbal discussion with OH
Complaint 2 and 3
Answers to the points requiring clarification
Investigation and appropriate measures then taken
An Apology

Complaint 4
Answers to the points requiring clarification
Investigation and appropriate measures then taken
An Apology
For the distress and subsequent upset this caused me I feel compensation is due. I am willing to accept an appropriate offer of goodwill from Welcome.

Complaint 5
Answers to the points requiring clarification
Investigation and appropriate measures then taken
An Apology

Complaint 6
Answers to the points requiring clarification
Investigation and appropriate measures then taken
An Apology
OH should not be left at a financial disadvantage. A full refund for the amount I expect Welcome to clarify as part of this complaint.

Complaint 7
Answers to the points requiring clarification
Investigation and appropriate measures then taken
An Apology
A full refund of the Insurance premium charged plus contractual interest at 42.6% to date – please confirm the total amount.

Complaint 8
Answers to the points requiring clarification
Investigation and appropriate measures then taken

Complaint 9
Answers to the points requiring clarification
Investigation and appropriate measures then taken
A full refund of all fees applied to this account, including the contractual interest as 42.6% (from which your staff even reversed and re-posted interest postings to ensure maximum interest was applied to every charge).

Complaints 10, 11 and 12
Answers to the points requiring clarification
Investigation and appropriate measures then taken

In summary:
Please confirm receipt of this complaint.
Please thoroughly investigate each complaint and the issues involved.
Please respond to ALL points requiring clarification and provide documentation where relevant.
** If you are unable to answer any particular point asked or provide any of the documents requested please confirm this in writing, along with your reasons.

We understand that due to the quantity of complaints we have raised it may take some time to look into, and considering some of the serious issues raised we realise you will want to investigate fully, however I would point out that, within keeping with your Complaints Procedure, we would expect at least an update within 28 days. Please ensure we are kept up to date with your progress.

We look forward to your earliest response,

Yours sincerely

OH
Dipply75

Going by the pathetic letter they sent me, I doubt they'll even understand it

I have made one or two changes in blue and a couple of comments in red. Ummm, yep tis a long one Crikey though, I cant believe they gave details out to your partner and under such a flimsy excuse.

Hopefully someone else will comment for you as well.

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	The Direct Debit Guarantee • The Guarantee is offered by all Banks and Building Societies that take part in the Direct Debit Scheme. The efficiency and security of the Scheme is monitored and protected by your own Bank or Building Society. • If the amounts to be paid or the payment dates change, we will notify you three working days in advance of your account being debited or as otherwise agreed. • If an error is made by us or by your Bank or Building Society, you are guaranteed a full and immediate refund from your branch of the amount paid. • You can cancel a Direct Debit at any time by writing your Bank or Building Society. Please also send a copy of your letter to us. This is a term of your banking contract and you can sue on it.

	Debt collection library Follow this link to our debt collection library. This library contains templates and advice for dealing with debt collectors who act oppressively or unfairly. This library is work in progress and will be built up over the next few weeks. 17.03.09

	Disputed account materials Follow this link to our library of materials to help you try to deal with the problems of defaults on disputed accounts. It is contrary to Information Commissioner guidelines and also contrary to the banking code to default disputed accounts. However, it happens all the time.

	Are you letting your bank keep your money Are you giving away thousands of pounds?? Many people aren't claiming all of the money they are entitled to when they make their bank charges claims. You have been forced to pay unfair bank charges. Have you forgotten that your bank has charged you inteest on those charges? If you are overdrawn and the bank owes you charges - then your overdraft is made up of charges - money which you bank owes you. Yet you are paying interest to the bank - on your own money!!! Follow this link to see the discussions on this. You might even double th size of your claim.

[citizenB]

Actually, I just noticed you mention they have sent you a Final Response letter. I would go straight to the Financial Ombudsman, saying that you consider in the light of the FR letter.. that you have exhausted the complaints procedure with little satisfaction.

	The Financial Ombudsman Service For the most part, don't bother. The Ombudsman is an industry arranged service which is under-resourced, takes too long, lacks clear transparency. You have no idea what evidence the FOS has received from the bank or how your complain has really been handled. The FOS is the preferred complaints route for the banking industry. The county court is to be preferred by consumers for its speed, openness, the quality of its awards and also because it will award 8% interest on top of any damages won by you. The Ombudsman should normally be used to solving little technical difficulties or customer service problems which you have expereinced with your bank.

[Dipply75]

Thank you!!!! Have made the changes you suggested and it reads much better now. When they gave my OH that info it caused all sorts of aggro. I only borrowed to try and pay nursery fees when my tax credits went haywire. My OH was of the opinion the nursery should have been more understanding but I really felt I had to try and pay them, so he didn't know.....until THEY told him!

Besides, a girlie should be allowed a few secrets

Final response letter, pmsl, I could and it would serve them right, muppets. I am going to give them every opportunity to do the right thing and be miss reasonable so if this has to hit court, I will be ready

Thanks again for wading through that, you're a trooper!

[postggj]

hi dipply
have not read full thread yet but have you had your Subject Access Request back
are the insurances included and who is underwriting them (cough)

by the way welcome at local office are nothing more than trained monkeys
send correspondents to there compliance department

welcome financial services ltd
compliance dept
mere way
ruddington fields business park
ruddington
nottingham
ng11 6nz

send recorded/special as correspondents to welcome have a habit of getting lost

	Subject Access Request A Subject Access Request is a demand which you can make to any organisation to disclose any personal information which they hold on you. The right to disclosure of data is provided by the Data Protection Act. There is no time limit. The organisation is obliged to reveal everything they have about you - which you ask for - as far back as you ask for. There are very few exceptions. It does not matter whether the data is held on microfiche, in an archive, on tape, in a cardex system, in sound recordings or in screen notes. Some companies are saying that they do not have to disclose where it would be difficult to do so - "disproportionate effort". This is untrue. Disproportionate effort refers to something else under the Act. If you are seeking bank charges information then you should ask for "all data held on you" and you should make it clear that you want everything as far back as it goes. Do not be put off by excuses. Do not accept being fobbed off. It is not in your bank's interest to make full disclosure to you. This means that it is in your interests to get it. If you have not started gathering your bank charges information yet, then you should start now. There will soon be a big rush once the OFT test case has been settled. Get all of your bank account informtion as far back as possible. At least as far back as 1995. If your bank says that they don't keep data as far back as this, don't accept it. Be persistent. They've got what you need in some form or other.

[Dipply75]

I was just searching the tinterweb for the addres for the compliance dept, spooky!

Complaint now finalised with kind help from some good folks (citizenB, foolishgirl and yourself to name a few!) and being sent with Subject Access Request in the morning - special delivery of course.

Read up on this Insurance Premium Tax on the link Alanalana posted for me and, basically, if a single premium insurance policy is sold the insurer pays a tax on it. Around 5% i think?

So, my premium should have been paid to the insurer, who would then pay mr tax man his % - which should all be traceable. If the premium is not paid to an insurer, how does the taxman get his money?

If Welcome paid the taxman direct, would it not look strange coming from a broker?

	Subject Access Request A Subject Access Request is a demand which you can make to any organisation to disclose any personal information which they hold on you. The right to disclosure of data is provided by the Data Protection Act. There is no time limit. The organisation is obliged to reveal everything they have about you - which you ask for - as far back as you ask for. There are very few exceptions. It does not matter whether the data is held on microfiche, in an archive, on tape, in a cardex system, in sound recordings or in screen notes. Some companies are saying that they do not have to disclose where it would be difficult to do so - "disproportionate effort". This is untrue. Disproportionate effort refers to something else under the Act. If you are seeking bank charges information then you should ask for "all data held on you" and you should make it clear that you want everything as far back as it goes. Do not be put off by excuses. Do not accept being fobbed off. It is not in your bank's interest to make full disclosure to you. This means that it is in your interests to get it. If you have not started gathering your bank charges information yet, then you should start now. There will soon be a big rush once the OFT test case has been settled. Get all of your bank account informtion as far back as possible. At least as far back as 1995. If your bank says that they don't keep data as far back as this, don't accept it. Be persistent. They've got what you need in some form or other.

[citizenB]

I look forward to their reply with interest. I am really not to sure about this tax business sorry.

Just out of interest. How many pages did your letter print out over ?

	Are you letting your bank keep your money Are you giving away thousands of pounds?? Many people aren't claiming all of the money they are entitled to when they make their bank charges claims. You have been forced to pay unfair bank charges. Have you forgotten that your bank has charged you inteest on those charges? If you are overdrawn and the bank owes you charges - then your overdraft is made up of charges - money which you bank owes you. Yet you are paying interest to the bank - on your own money!!! Follow this link to see the discussions on this. You might even double th size of your claim.

[alanalana]

well spotted citizenB,

diply make sure to keep a tally on paper and ink in your future claim for costs plus time (at time and a half at least), postage. electricity for added PC running, petrol for running the mail to the postbox. and don't forget missed meals while doing all this stuff!!

keep up the fight and good luck

aa

[leedspete]

i have sent my S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) off got the repnse i needed in record time but i do not understand statements.it says something about capitalization which i dont understand.also i faxed a letter saying i wanted to cancel my ppi but they havent done.what do i do next

	Subject Access Request A Subject Access Request is a demand which you can make to any organisation to disclose any personal information which they hold on you. The right to disclosure of data is provided by the Data Protection Act. There is no time limit. The organisation is obliged to reveal everything they have about you - which you ask for - as far back as you ask for. There are very few exceptions. It does not matter whether the data is held on microfiche, in an archive, on tape, in a cardex system, in sound recordings or in screen notes. Some companies are saying that they do not have to disclose where it would be difficult to do so - "disproportionate effort". This is untrue. Disproportionate effort refers to something else under the Act. If you are seeking bank charges information then you should ask for "all data held on you" and you should make it clear that you want everything as far back as it goes. Do not be put off by excuses. Do not accept being fobbed off. It is not in your bank's interest to make full disclosure to you. This means that it is in your interests to get it. If you have not started gathering your bank charges information yet, then you should start now. There will soon be a big rush once the OFT test case has been settled. Get all of your bank account informtion as far back as possible. At least as far back as 1995. If your bank says that they don't keep data as far back as this, don't accept it. Be persistent. They've got what you need in some form or other.

[Dipply75]

Hi leedspete, you really need to start your own thread so there is all the info in one place and people can really help you, let us know when you have and we can see what the story is and your next step.

COmplaint letter and non compliance of CCA request letter received this morning by Welcome. The letter came out at a rather ridiculous 9 pages citizenB, hehe!

They should be attempting to read and understand it just about now....

[citizenB]

Originally Posted by Dipply75

COmplaint letter and non compliance of CCA request letter received this morning by Welcome. The letter came out at a rather ridiculous 9 pages citizenB, hehe!

They should be attempting to read and understand it just about now....

LOL, umm, they very rarely read a letter that is one page only. I wonder if they can find anyone with sufficient dedicated reading skills to wade through yours