Sticky ticket fell off. Do I stand a chance??

[Cedric5000]

Hi All,
First time posting so hopefully I do this right!
My other half managed to get herself a PCN from the council in an off-street car park in February 2007. The annoying thing is,she had a ticket!
She came back to the car once she had finished shopping and saw the PCN under the wiper. when she opened the door, she saw that the ticket had fallen off the windscreen. It was one of those tickets with the adhesive part to supposedly stick to your windscreen. She immediately approached the Warden who was still around and showed her that she had a valid ticket. The warden said that she couldn't stop the ticket as it was already issued, but just to write to the council and tell them that she had a valid ticket and they would quash it. I constructed an email for the online parking appeal system stating that she had a valid ticket at that time but it must have fallen off the windscreen - maybe I should not have said that to the council, but that was what happened. I told them that we still have the ticket and could provide it if necessary (I probably should have sent a scanned image of it to them). I really wish I had found this forum before I sent the email. I thought that would be enough, but they have written a letter back saying the following:

Dear Miss xxxxxxxxxx,
Penalty Charge Notice: xxxxxxxx
Issued 12/02/07 Vehicle: xxxxxxx

I acknowledge receipt of your letter in relation to the above penalty charge issued to your vehicle.

The Penalty Charge Notice was issued as the vehicle was parked in the Peel House Lower Level Car Park without clearly displaying a valid pay & display ticket.

Subsequent notification of a Pay & Display machine ticket after a Penalty Charge Notice is issued is not evidence that one was on display in the vehicle at the time the Notice was served. When a Parking Attendant issues a Penalty Charge Notice for this contravention he/she will record any visible sign of a Pay & Display machine ticket. It could be facedown or on the floor of the vehicle. On this occasion when the issuing parking attendant observed the vehicle there was no record of the pay & display ticket you refer too as being on display. The attendant has recollection of a conversation and has made no record of having been shown the ticket after the notice had been issued. After careful consideration, of the facts, I am satisfied that the notice was properly issued and am unable to cancel on this occasion. It is therefore requested you make settlement at the discounted rate of £40.00 within 14 days of this letter £80.00 thereafter.

Cheques or Postal Orders should be made payable to blah blah blah......

If you are unhappy with this decision you should await the Notice to Owner upon which you can make your formal representations. At this stage the charge is £80.00. You cannot make settlement at the discounted rate of £40.00 and appeal. Should your appeal be rejected at this stage you will be sent a Notice of Rejection together with a leaflet advising you how to appeal.

Any further letters received prior to this stage will not be given consideration.

I have looked through a lot of the threads here and have scoured the PCN looking for a mistake, but cannot see anything. If anyone else would be kind enough to take a look I will try and put it on here.

Does anyone have any ideas what I should do next?

Is it worth going ahead with the appeal as the warden is claiming there was no ticket at all, not even facedown, so its her word against my girlfriends. We have the valid ticket but is this enough to win an appeal? Help!

[Cedric5000]

Nobody has any opinion either way I guess. Jeeez, I thought someone might offer some kind of advice. At the very least I expected someone to say "Just pay it!". Time is running out. Can anyone offer any assistance at all before the discount goes?

[patdavies]

You can do no more at the minute - the Council have rejected your representations.

If you have a valid PCN (and you need to remove personal details and post it on here to be checked), then you have a choice:

1. Pay it at the reduced rate
2. Take the appeal all the way to PATAS/NPAS (as you don't name the council) on the grounds that the failure to display was as a result of defective adhesive on the ticket; it had been stuck on the windscreen but obviously fell off.

[bribri]

read the thread: Ticket fell to the floor!!! Can anyone help me? it is about three or 4 pages back. It refers to two cases which went to appeal. 1 at NPAS (outside London) believed the driver and allowed the appeal, the other at PATAS for London rejected the appeal.

I know which one I would quote in defence.

[xipetotec46]

If you post your original thread on PePiPoo: Helping the motorist to get justice there are more experts on there who can help you but you must post both sides of the PCN so they can check the validity of the wording on it against the RTA 1991 sec 66(3) you can host the images on ImageShack® - Hosting then choose the html code for forums 1 copy it then paste it in your thread. you can also do that on here, but pepipoo is the one you need

[Zamzara]

Does anyone know if purchasing a council pay and display ticket counts as a consumer contract? If so, and the appeal is rejected, would it not be possible to pay the penalty and then sue the council for compensation because the ticket was not fit for its purpose?

[xipetotec46]

Contest the PCN go all the way to NPAS you had paid to park, if the ticket fell because of poor adhesion qualities then it is not fit for the purpose it was purchased for, so under the sale of goods the Council can get a refund on the millions of P&D tickets they bought, this helps you has the quality of the adhesive did not do what it was supposed to and stick to a window unaided, NPAS can direct (Not force) the council to cancel the ticket on the basis that in all good faith the parking time was paid for.

[patdavies]

Originally Posted by xipetotec46

so under the sale of goods the Council can get a refund on the millions of P&D tickets they bought,

No they can't. The SOGA applies for consumers, not businesses or public bodies.

[seylectric]

Good idea for a defence though.

The whole thing is a disgrace, you are effectively being "fined" without a trial for a "crime" in which there were no victims, no loss of income or costs to anybody, no damage to property, in otherwords a big no need. The whole thing is a complete farce, something really needs to be done about this parking ticket cash cow.

[xipetotec46]

Originally Posted by patdavies

No they can't. The SOGA applies for consumers, not businesses or public bodies.

Yes.. point taken Pat.. I was trying to convey that had they bought shoddy goods they can get their money back for them sticky tickets with no sticky on em!! or they could just give em a PCN and get it back that way, why stop at the public. (just kiddin) no i'm not.

[Cedric5000]

Thanks everyone for your input. I have persuaded my GF not to pay and we are waiting for a notice to owner. For some reason I am having a real hard time getting the PCN onto ImageShack properly, but I shall persevere.

[xipetotec46]

Originally Posted by Cedric5000

I am having a real hard time getting the PCN onto ImageShack properly, but I shall persevere.

If you need any help with images let me know i'll walk you through it

[Cedric5000]

Here is the PCN. The only thing definitely wrong is the colour. The car is definitely silver. Not sure how much weight that holds in an appeal. Hopefully someone can find something wrong with it.

[xipetotec46]

The PCN appears to be compliant, you could ask for a copy of the Traffic Regulation Order (TRO) for the P&D site you received your PCN at, it may not be in order if it isn't the PCN is invalid and no contravention occured.

[rogerebaker]

have a look at the following link from the NPAS web site. It is not identical to your case but gives you an idea.

http://www.parking-appeals.gov.uk/ab...27Hepworth.doc

Also in the most recent annual report from NPAS the councils were given a real slating for not using their discretion in cases exactly like yours especially if the motorist is able to produce a ticket proving they have paid. You even produced it to the Parking warden immediatly which adds more weight to your case.

Also you must get the relevant traffic order for the car park. A significant number of the traffic orders state that you have to purchase a ticket and display it which you did. they often dont say say that you have to continue to display it throughout your stay. The ajudicators have picked up on this with a number of councils and allowed appeals as a result.

By appealing you also have a fairly good chance that the NTO and/or the notice of rejection will be non complient. To date I have dealt with 7 PCN over the last couple of years for me and the many kids and the various councils have not managed to send a lawful notice of rejection yet.

Even if you do lose it will only cost you the price of the PCN and considering you can spend about 6 months pi....g the council off with loads of letters of complaint its fairly good value for money

stick with it

[Corrigan Derbyshire]

Pay and Display is everywhere and the wardens will fine you for even the smallest mistake or accident with your ticket, did you know that even if you position your ticket properly but on a window instead of the windscreen they will give you a fine?

There is a fantastic new product around called the ParkaPatch, I have one and it's a brilliant yet simple device which holds any parking ticket flat and firm to the windscreen and keeps it there, it's self-cling so there's no glue and you can use it again and again and it's highly visible with PAY and DISPLAY in big letters so wardens can't miss it, and you can't forget to use it cos it's always there on the windscreen. Take a look at www.parkapatch.com it's selling all over the world and I can see why because it's a great idea, maybe you should try that and in the meantime good luck with your appeals I hope you win x

[Cedric5000]

Do I need to ask the council for a copy of the RTO for the car park or can I obtain it from somewhere else? Any points in the right direction would be greatly appreciated.

[xipetotec46]

Do I need to ask the council for a copy of the RTO for the car park

Yes phone the council or email the parking shop for a copy of the TRO for the car park.