UKPC parking fine

[youdon'tgetmymoney]

Originally Posted by Filthy Monkey

Well, in preparation for your impending fame and notoriety, how about posting the picture here first and we'll all give you our opinion...?

lol, being in the Nowhere-Special News is one thing.....no I think I'll pass on that one but thanks for the offer

Good luck all, give 'em hell

[Filthy Monkey]

Originally Posted by aliceh

Thanks. So from reading the above; I take it that I state the case clearly to them by letter that they need to prove I am the driver of the vehicle and see what they've got. If they present evidence that suggests I was the driver where does that leave me though?

Alice

Well, to be honest, it leaves you in pretty much the same place as when you started. They would still have to prove in court that you agreed to a contract and that their parking costs are justified due to actual loss, and are not just a penalty charge.

The crux of the matter is that these charges are not enforceable and the chances of a company taking anybody to court over them are so slim, as they do not want a court to set a precedent that would, effectively, ruin their scamming business. They simply rely on scare tactics to make motorists pay up and the percentage that do seems to be high enough to make them a tidy profit.

[Notpayinapenny]

I too have a UKPC invoice which has been referred to Hunter Forrest & Co - but mine is for £115.24.
I am the registered keeper, but was not the driver on the date of the alleged offence - I need the moral support of this site and others like it (eg pepipoo) to keep going. I will post a more detailed description of my plight later, but I just wanted to ask today if anybody has an address for Hunter Forrest & Co ? I can find CCSES (who have a remarkably similar telephone number), but Googling just led me to this Consumer Action Group site.

[bankbustermum]

The number for Hunter Forrest & Co is 01527 571060, and the address is: Hanbury Stoke House
Saxon Business Park
Hanbury Road
Stoke Prior
Bromsgrove
Worcestershire
B60 4AD

Just received a letter from them this morning saying that having looked into my query (that the issue should not have been passed to them since i'm disputing the ticket) and it says "unfortunately we have not been advised of any letter received by our client and therefore...will continue with recovery action"

I have sent two letters to ukpc disputing the case and yet they have "no record". Both of the letters went recorded delivery (although i've lost my tracking numbers) and so can't prove this.

Should I just send UKPC another letter or is it too late for this? Where should I go now??

[Rob S]

Just write back to Hunter Forrest and point out (AGAIN) that the matter is in dispute and that you do not accept that you are liable for the invoice, and advise them that they have no choice but to pass it back to UKPC.

Without a judgement from a county court there is nothing they can do to recover the funds. And if they go so far as to register the alleged debt with a credit reference agency, then you will have them all by the short and curlys with regards to a breach of the Data Protection Act.

[bankbustermum]

Thanks, I hope it doesn't get to that stage, much as I like the idea of having "them by the short and curlys".

[bankbustermum]

just wondering if this should do the trick??

Dear Sirs

RE: Penalty Notice 0000000000
Having received your letter of 29 March 2007, I write to advise you, again, that the parking penalty issued to myself from UK Parking Control Limited, is currently being disputed. As such, this matter should not have been passed to your company in the first instance and indeed should be referred back to UK Parking Control Limited.

Although I am the registered keeper of the vehicle, I was not the driver at the time the ticket was issued and therefore can not be held liable for the alleged contravention.


Yours faithfully

[Notpayinapenny]

Bankbustermum
Don't you think its strange that the Registered Office for UKPC and the address that you gave me for Hunter Forrest & Co are identical..............

[bankbustermum]

From what I've read here, and elsewhere, I don't find it strange at all... Seems these companies think nothing of ripping us off at every opportunity.

[Notpayinapenny]

Up until now I had only replied to them by referring them to my first letter which denied responsibility. I've now sent the following letter. There may be minor inaccuracies and overstatements - credit to legalpete from pepipoo for most of the following. The TV and newspaper bits are true, but the TV company does not normally do this kind of thing an are not sure if it will sell. Sorry about the length of this, but I had to get it off my chest.




Dear Sir or Madam:
Please read this carefully, because the wrong action following this letter by your company may result a very public court case. I have already had interest from a TV production company, and a local newspaper on following this case.
1. Dispute.
I was at my place of work all day on XX/XX/07 and did not drive my car that day. I did not enter XXX XXXX Park. If somebody entered into an agreement with you on that day, then it certainly was not me. I therefore dispute that I owe you anything. Please note the word ”dispute” and say it very clearly to your Debt Recovery Agency, as they (and you) will risk prosecution if they attempt to touch any of my property.
2. Parking Charge Notice (PCN)
You have sent me an invoice which purports to be a PCN. A PCN to most people is a Penalty Charge Notice, for which there are provisions in the Road Traffic Act 1991. Also your FINAL REMINDER states “3. As the registered owner / keeper / of the vehicle you are legally liable for the parking charge even if you were not the driver at the time.” I suggest that you ask your legal department to study that statement and comment on its accuracy.
I also urge you to study Section 40 of the Administration of Justice Act 1970, but just incase you do not have a copy to hand I will enlighten you;
Section 40 of the act provides that a person commits an offence if, with the object of coercing another person to pay money claimed from the other as a debt due under contract, he or she:
(a) harasses the other with demands for payment which by their frequency, or the manner or occasion of their making, or any accompanying threat or publicity are calculated to subject him or his family or household to alarm, distress or humiliation;
(b) falsely represents, in relation to the money claimed, that criminal proceedings lie for failure to pay it;
(c) falsely represent themselves to be authorised in some official capacity to claim or enforce payment;
(d) utters a document falsely represented by him to have some official character or purporting to have some official character which he knows it has not.
Paragraph (a) above does not apply to anything done by a person which is reasonable (and otherwise legal) for the purpose of :
(1) of securing the discharge of an obligation due, or believed by him to be due, to himself or to persons for whom he acts, or protecting himself or them from future loss; or
(2) of the enforcement of any liability by legal process.
It is also provided that a person may be guilty of an offence under paragraph (a) above if he concerts with others in the taking of such action as is described in that paragraph, notwithstanding that his own course of conduct does not by itself amount to harassment.
3. Breach of Contract
If a person parks on your car park they enter into a contract and agree to your terms. If they did something contrary to those terms then they would be in breach of the contract. The common law holds that the remedy for breach of contract is damages. Therefore you would be entitled to damages covering the costs incurred as a result of breaching the contract. In this case there were no costs involved - your attendants job description will I am sure include the issue of invoices, which means his/her salary would have to be paid regardless. Perhaps you would argue that the car was over the line of the bay thus preventing another customer from parking - it would not work however in this case unless their car was triangular and was dropped into position – take another look at your photo. There is no lost revenue in a free car park either. You may now claim expenses in writing the many letters to me, but I think that you will find I did, (in an attempt to save you time and money) very kindly point out your error in my first correspondence.
4. Exorbitant Terms of Contract
If there had been a case to answer here then I think that any court would agree that the sum of money you are claiming is totally disproportionate to the alleged offence. I suggest you study the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations (1999).
5. - (1) A contractual term which has not been individually negotiated shall be regarded as unfair if, contrary to the requirement of good faith, it causes a significant imbalance in the parties' rights and obligations arising under the contract, to the detriment of the consumer.

(2) A term shall always be regarded as not having been individually negotiated where it has been drafted in advance and the consumer has therefore not been able to influence the substance of the term.

(3) Notwithstanding that a specific term or certain aspects of it in a contract has been individually negotiated, these Regulations shall apply to the rest of a contract if an overall assessment of it indicates that it is a pre-formulated standard contract.

(4) It shall be for any seller or supplier who claims that a term was individually negotiated to show that it was.

(5) Schedule 2 to these Regulations contains an indicative and non-exhaustive list of the terms which may be regarded as unfair.”
The full schedules can be found on various government sites. Most notably Statutory Instrument 1999 No. 2083
You might also want to look at the Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977.
5. Harassment
I see your charge as unlawful, unenforceable and I am not liable. I will not be providing any payment and your continued pursuit of this matter will constitute an offence under the Protection From Harassment Act 1997. I consider the matter closed and am explicitly instructing you not to contact me again for any reason. I shall be passing any further correspondence from you or anybody acting on your behalf to the police as further evidence of harassment.

[bankbustermum]

Got a letter fro HF & Co this morning telling me that if payment is not made within 7 days they will commence enforcement proceedings via the County Court.

Called them to tell them (again) that the matter is under dispute; and that two letters to this effect had been forwarded to them. The girl on the phone became really stroppy at this point and insisted that I forward another letter outlining the dispute.

Should I just pay? I can't afford to have a CCJ at this point as I am in the process of trying to buy a new house.

Bankbustermum

[Zamzara]

Originally Posted by bankbustermum

Got a letter fro HF & Co this morning telling me that if payment is not made within 7 days they will commence enforcement proceedings via the County Court.

Called them to tell them (again) that the matter is under dispute; and that two letters to this effect had been forwarded to them. The girl on the phone became really stroppy at this point and insisted that I forward another letter outlining the dispute.

Should I just pay? I can't afford to have a CCJ at this point as I am in the process of trying to buy a new house.

Bankbustermum

I've just re-read you OP and assuming it is accurate you have nothing to worry about. Nothing can happen without a hearing, so just explain to the judge what happened, that you are a blue badge holder etc. If they show their photo, point out the the angle is deliberately designed to hide the badge and ask them why they didn't take it from a clear angle. Remember the premises you are visiting are also bound by the Disability Discrimination Act to provide you with assistance.

If they actually took this to court not only would they lose, but there is a reasonable chance they would be prosecuted IMO.

Even if you did lose, you don't get a CCJ unless you refuse to pay the court judgement.

[Rob S]

Enforcement proceedings??? They can only enforce this when they have got a judgement at the county court, and to do that they will have to prove to the court who was driving and the fact there was a contract in place between them and the driver. And even then they can only claim for reasonable damages that they have incurred, not for the full amount of the "Penalty notice". And if they do go to county court, you will have an opportunity to go to court and defend yourself.

You have written to them plenty of times now ( and I presume you have copies of all your letters). I suspect that writing to them again won't make the slightest bit of difference, so let them make the next move. I would be surprised if they take this to court. And if they do try and register this alleged debt with a credit reference agency you will have no trouble getting it deleted as inaccurate.

I wouldn't pay them a penny if I were in your shoes, but its a decision for you to make. But you have come this far, why let them win?

They are rogues and charletans who prey on the people not knowing that their practices are shady, but you know this. You know there are plenty of people here who will support you.

[bankbustermum]

Think I'm going to fight it. I'm going to contact my local newspaper too and see if they are interested in running a story on it.

I do have copies of all the correspondence between myself, UKPC and HF & Co, so I guess I'm as prepared for a hearing as I need to be?

I must admit I didn't think it'd get this far but I guess once you take a stand you have to keep going with it...

[demon_x_slash]

Don't back down. Think of it as this, and it'll prob. get edited, but they are figuratively trying to rob you. They are trying to trick you into paying them by assuming that you are ignorant of the law and talking over you as if you didn't matter. You said yourself that the girl on the phone became stroppy - you need to think: How dare you? How dare you keep interrupting my life with your unlawful demands? Their even assuming that you will be fooled by false assumptions of superiority/legality/officialdom should have you jumping up and down with rage. They're assuming that you're stupid, here. Doesn't that pee you off? It pees me off. You need to use that righteous anger to push you on and keep you going. They have no authority. The burden of proof is on them. You don't need to send them another letter, you've sent two already. Let them do the ineffectual squeaking for once and see how they like it...

[bankbustermum]

Thanks for the advice everyone.

I am now going to just sit tight and see what happens... Spoke to my husband last night and he agrees that we shouldn't be bullied into parting with our hard earned cash.

[demon_x_slash]

You go, gel. Don't let them blindside you into giving up, 'cos that's just what they want.