Your parking ticket may be unlawful - Page 5

dave · 5th June 2006, 15:34

I don't know if any of you saw, but my house has been wrecked due to water damage.

On the day it happened, I was late getting to pick my car up from the car park (due to having a rather large water crisis) and thus the reason I was late moving my car before the charging period came in.

I got to the car and yes I had a parking ticket - Later that day I was driving around with a passenger in my car looking for holiday lets (so that we had somewhere to live as our house was no longer inhabitable) and the PCN stuck to my passengers leg (at least that's the only explanation I can come up with) and was subsiquently lost.

Is there anything I can do about this one - I can't check the wording on the ticket because I have lost it.

Rich44 · 5th June 2006, 15:56

Can you not just play dumb and when they write to you say what ticket and then take it from there?

dave · 5th June 2006, 16:08

That's the way I was thinking

Rich44 · 5th June 2006, 16:36

lol great minds n all that

chrismc · 5th June 2006, 18:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by dave

That's the way I was thinking

Dave....I know a lot of TW's take digital photos of tickets now once placed on your car, in fact I saw one TW recently place a ticket on a taxi in a carpark and there were already about 5 tickets on the same car. He spent nearly 10 minutes taking photos of it from all angles, did a better job than David Bailey would!!! he took them with a dinky little camera he carried round in his handbag

So I am not sure the argument it was lost would stand up, but no doubt seylectric has the answer for you, he seems to be the Parking Ticket king, around here!!

Chris

Rich44 · 5th June 2006, 18:49

Proof of a warden placing it on your car is hardly proof of it still being there by the time you got there.

1. Might have been a windy day theyre not always stuck down properly
2. Some muppet might have thought it would be funny to remove it
3. If it was raining they dont always stick well either

I think the What ticket argument would still stand up they cannot prove he removed it and lost it, well unless they have actual cctv footage of him doing so lol

deemacperth · 5th June 2006, 18:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich44

Quick bit of advice needed, is this one legally enforcable or not?

Makes me laugh there was a permit on the dashboard, they must be blind I think lol. I'd just like to have my facts straight before mouthing off at them.

The ticket isn't legal. There is no date of issue. The reason this is important is the way the payment of the PCN is allowed within 28 days. some councils include the day when the ticket is issued whilst the correct time period is starting from the day after. Here's the NPAS circular that was sent out after the Macarthur and Bury City Council case.:

http://www.parking-appeals.gov.uk/ab...20of%20PCN.pdf

scan the back end of the ticket for us so we can see how it refers to payment to be made. If it's anything like the rest it'll be dodgy for this reason as well

Quote:

the PCN in question states “You are therefore required to pay a penalty of £60 within 28 days. The charge will be reduced to £30 if payment is received within 14 days.” contained in the information on the front of the PCN. I find this confusing as it implies payment of the penalty is required from the driver of the vehicle whereas in fact liability rests with the owner of the vehicle. This information is again repeated on the back of the PCN as follows: “If payment is not received within 14 days, you will be required to pay £60 (the full amount of the notice).” This conflicts with Section 66 (2) Road Traffic Act 1991 and does not adhere to the standards demonstrated clearly by the DoT model ticket.

Dave,

Wait till you get the notice to owner then explain you never received a PCN. Ask for a copy of the PCN to be sent to you. All PCN's retain a copy in the wardens machine.

seylectric · 5th June 2006, 19:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrismc

Dave....I know a lot of TW's take digital photos of tickets now once placed on your car, in fact I saw one TW recently place a ticket on a taxi in a carpark and there were already about 5 tickets on the same car. He spent nearly 10 minutes taking photos of it from all angles, did a better job than David Bailey would!!! he took them with a dinky little camera he carried round in his handbag

So I am not sure the argument it was lost would stand up, but no doubt seylectric has the answer for you, he seems to be the Parking Ticket king, around here!!

Chris

Not at all I've just been pursuing this for a while and taken a lot of information from the links posted in this thread.

My thoughts on the photos is ask to see them! I've watched them take photos and they often show the windscreen, the car from a slight distance (OK they step back 2 paces), the signs if there are any, and so on. I have NEVER seen then take photos showing the car in situ as a whole, e.g. the signs, the ticket, the lines etc. so as far as I am concerned they don't and by the way who is to say that the digital photos haven't been tampered with? That's why Gatso speed cameras do not use digital hardware!

Rich44 · 5th June 2006, 19:51

It hasnt come out too well so i'll have another go later and see if I can do better but tea on the go and a bath running so pressed for time lol

seylectric · 6th June 2006, 00:10

Is that it? Is there another part to it or information on the other side? If not that's hardly worthy of wiping your bum on. There are no details of the contravention whatsoever, no place, no car reg, no date, nothing at all. If that's all there is it must be the easiest one to fight I have ever seen!

the wording at the top throws up a whole new argument too. I would be interested to know why it is a criminal offence to remove the notice, surely your car is your private property and if anybody removed anything from it only the owner would have the right to prosecute. I seriously doubt that there is another law anywhere that prevents another person from removing anything from your car which would allow the council to prosecute (that goes for wheel clamps too).

Even so presumably all you would need to do is to ask somebody "to remove that thing from your windscreen" and throw it away, after all you have no idea what it is/was. Personally I think it is a criminal offence for somebody to actually stick something to your windscreen, it's certainly illegal to drive away with it in situ as it is hampering your vision and isn't it correct that the only thing you are legally alowed to have in your front windscreen is your road tax disc (not sure if placing parking permits there is legal either, wish I knew the answer then that's some else I could hit the council with)

StoneLaughter · 6th June 2006, 00:13

Sey - I think that's the back of the ticket posted earlier...

seylectric · 6th June 2006, 00:18

Doh!

Ah well, it gave me something else to moan about!

oktopusinc · 6th June 2006, 09:40

Hi all,I have three tickets issued in 2000 by Canterbury City Council.I was a student then and unable to and not clued up enough to appeal against them - one I forgot the pay and display ticket on the car after a minute - walked back and there was the notice.another was a parking outside of bay offence and the other was returning late - after a lecture ended late - to my car on a time limited road.Is there anything wrong with this ticket here and does anyone think I may be able to reclaim the money - I'm more interested in the principle of making them pay up than the actual money

oktopusinc · 6th June 2006, 09:45

Sorry - didnt manage to put the ticket in the last post - here it is:

StoneLaughter · 6th June 2006, 13:26

No "Date of Issue"... it's not legal.

oktopusinc · 6th June 2006, 13:33

But the real question I suppose is will I be able to claim my money back after having paid it?

I sent this to them today anyway....

Dear Mathew,

thank you for providing me with details of PCN's issued to me in 2000.

I am concerned that the PCN's that were issued to me, and that I subsequently paid fines for, were not legal.

I question the validity of the PCN's as the PCN's in question did not have the date of issue clearly marked as per the instructions of Section 66 (3) Road Traffic Act 1991 and did not adhere to the standards demonstrated clearly by the DoT model ticket. I refer you to Macarthur v. Bury Metropolitan Borough Council and Aldridge v. Westminster City Council.

Clearly you penalising me for contraventions of parking and equally I believe you should be penalised for contraventions of your own.

The PCN's I refer to are:
CT00037989 - here I forgot the pay and display ticket - returned to my car after one minute and found a PCN.

CT00011362 - here I apparently parked a few cm over a bay marking.

CT00036680 - here I returned slightly late to my car after an important lecture had ended late.

At the time I was a student and unaware of the illegality of your PCN's. Had I known this I would have appealed against the PCN's. These tickets, all issued within a short period of time, caused me great hardship as a student and I felt that students were prayed upon by your parking attendants.

Please pass this information on to the relevant council officer who may deal with the refund of my PCN fines which I total at £80.00

Freedom of Information Request

I would be grateful if you could provide the following:

1. The number and value of PCN's issued by Canterbury City Council which did not bear a date of issue in the main body of the PCN and the number that were appealed to NPAS?

2. The number and value of PCN's issued in areas where there is no valid Traffic Regulation Order in place?

3. Details of any internal communications (written, verbal and e-mail) regarding the issuing of PCN's in locations which do not have a valid TRO.

4. The number of PCN's appealed to NPAS where a TRO was not supplied by the Council.

Yours sincerely,

Paul Herwin

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