Your parking ticket may be unlawful - Page 11

Movingon · 23rd July 2006, 22:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by j.wandless

Hi
I received a hand written parking ticket which is headed as 'Northumbria Police - Fixed Penalty Notice(Non-endorsable offence)'.
Section 1 has my registration details, the street and town, the times 11.25 to 11.45 and 'on' which has been filled with the date 070706. The next section is the 'offence' with the code M1 - The vehicle was waiting in a restricted area. The officers signature, number and sector/section have been completed.
Nowhere in this section are the terms ' date issued' or 'contravention'.

Am I able to appeal against this ticket.

Don't appeal against it; deny it's validity! You have not committed an "Offence" - parking is decriminalised. And tickets must conform to the DoT model ticket and thus contain certain things: one of which is the "DATE OF ISSUE".

j.wandless · 23rd July 2006, 22:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by StoneLaughter

Don't appeal against it; deny it's validity! You have not committed an "Offence" - parking is decriminalised. And tickets must conform to the DoT model ticket and thus contain certain things: one of which is the "DATE OF ISSUE".

Hi - how do i go about doing that and where can I find more information about the DoT model ticket.

I know theres probably somewhere that already gives this information but I am new to this site and was originally looking into claiming back bank charges - there is just so much to read.

seylectric · 24th July 2006, 02:08

It's a case of reading through it and learning as you go unfortunately. There's no quick fix but as you rightly noted, the information is all to be found in this thread.

StoneLaughter made one of the single most important comments to date on this thread:

"Don't appeal against it; deny it's validity!"

That's the most single important thing to remember. You are NOT appealing against an unfair parking ticket, you are denying it's validity. The Notice-to-Owners, the court letter hiking it up to £90, the bailiffs letters etc. are irrelevant and illegal because the original ticket to which all these subsequent events apply is in many cases not worth the paper it is written on; it's completely invalid so any subsequent associated fees and charges would be rendered invalid too so don't be put off by "if you don't pay within 14 days the price will go up..." Nonsense.

Not forgetting that you have been tried, convicted and found guilty of something which isn't even an offence in legal terms but which you are being fined for without a trial. Not in my lifetime, not in England.

Incidentally I send an invoice in with my parking ticket appeals: Administration Fee: £60 - reduced to £30 if cheque received within 14 days but increased to £90 if not paid within 30 days. I will be claiming it in court too, together with 8% interest.

The bottom line is they can't fine you because it's not an offence. If it's not a legal fine then anything else has to be nothing more than an invoice and cannot be treated as a fine in the Majistrates Court. The law says so. That's why, in my opinion, even correctly worded tickets cannot be legal because they're not fines in the legal sense. If I am correct then the worst they can do is enter a CCJ against you. The Majistrates Court should not even get involved.

dw190 · 24th July 2006, 08:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by j.wandless

Hi
I received a hand written parking ticket which is headed as 'Northumbria Police - Fixed Penalty Notice(Non-endorsable offence)'.
Section 1 has my registration details, the street and town, the times 11.25 to 11.45 and 'on' which has been filled with the date 070706. The next section is the 'offence' with the code M1 - The vehicle was waiting in a restricted area. The officers signature, number and sector/section have been completed.
Nowhere in this section are the terms ' date issued' or 'contravention'.

Am I able to appeal against this ticket.

This is NOT a Penalty Charge Notice issued by Councils. It is "Fixed Penalty Notice" issued by Police and does not fall within the remit of DCE

dw190 · 24th July 2006, 08:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by rogerebaker

I have been corrresponding with Elmbridge Council for 2 months and they are treating me like a complete idiot. Their PCN dosnt comply with the RTA in about 5 areas. I received a notice to owner which is even worse. I am looking forward to an appearance at the appeal ajudicators although I suspect at some stage they are going to have to listen and cancel it.

A ticket I received from Woking council is just the same. The Notice to owner and the charge certificate are also invalid.

An important note on "Notice to Owner"

Councils do not have a time limit on issuing a NTO, however anything more than 6 months after the contravention would be considered by an adjudicator as to late.

Although a NTO may not conform to the mandatory requirements the council could technically re-issue one that did conform.

Its always a good thing to make simple representations following receipt of a NTO even just by stating the contravention did not occur. This would then trigger a "Notice of Rejection" which will no doubt be as bad as the NTO for errors.

If the NoR does not conformed to the requirements it is not a notice at all.

rogerebaker · 24th July 2006, 11:25

Good point They could issue another NTO.

Issuing another valid NTO would mean they would have to admit they were wrong in the first place

I think its more likely hell will freeze over but you never know.

rogerebaker · 24th July 2006, 11:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by j.wandless

Hi - how do i go about doing that and where can I find more information about the DoT model ticket.

I know theres probably somewhere that already gives this information but I am new to this site and was originally looking into claiming back bank charges - there is just so much to read.

Try http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/group...ads_027631.pdf

But before you start on this try and read all information on this thread and the links trust me it is worth it if you want to save money on PCNs

reduk054 · 24th July 2006, 19:36

Read through this thread, which appears to be mainly council car park related.

I managed to get a ticket in a privately run car park for overstaying by 5 minutes.

From what I can glean, as long as the t&c's of the car parking company are displayed in a prominent place prior to purchasing a ticket for parking (therefore entering a contract) then I am liable to pay the fine.

There is no "Date of Contravention" just "on", but don't believe that the wording really matters in this case. Is this correct?

If anyone can help, then I can provide more info. Really not happy as the fine is completely disproportionate to the overstayed time / amount paid to park.

jayne67 · 25th July 2006, 19:32

Hi all,
I have just spent the last 3/4 hrs reading the posts on this thread, having myself just become the 'proud' owner of a parking ticket.

.
I have got into a tizz about the date theory. My ticket sounds very much like the norm, penalty charge notice (pcn) issued under RTA 1991 etc, then gives the number and at the side it just says Date: 24/07/06 Time: 10.22. It then goes on to give the make of the car, the colour, and then says was observed at: 10.20. The rest is just where it was observed, by PA no. signature of said PA, then says penalty charge of 60.00 etc etc.
Is this ticket valid??
Thanks

dw190 · 25th July 2006, 21:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by jayne67

Hi all,
I have just spent the last 3/4 hrs reading the posts on this thread, having myself just become the 'proud' owner of a parking ticket.

.
I have got into a tizz about the date theory. My ticket sounds very much like the norm, penalty charge notice (pcn) issued under RTA 1991 etc, then gives the number and at the side it just says Date: 24/07/06 Time: 10.22. It then goes on to give the make of the car, the colour, and then says was observed at: 10.20. The rest is just where it was observed, by PA no. signature of said PA, then says penalty charge of 60.00 etc etc.
Is this ticket valid??
Thanks

Check Here http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/group...ads_027631.pdf

Look down the doc to Annex 12 1 on page 5 you will see a specimin PCN.

The vital issue with dates is that the PCN must have a "Date of Issue" because all the requirements for payment are XX days from the "Date of Issue" If there is no date of issue how are you expected to know when to pay within XX days including the "Date of Issue"

Movingon · 25th July 2006, 23:59

Just to further clarify what dw190 says... it must state "Date of Issue: xx/xx/xxxx". "Date: xx/xx/xxxx" is NOT GOOD ENOUGH. It MUST be "Date of Issue". There is NO room for manouevre.

jayne67 · 26th July 2006, 09:51

Thanks guys/gals, looks like my ticket may indeed be invalid. Letter on its way to Sheffield City Council.

rogerebaker · 26th July 2006, 10:38

Have a good look at the wording as well particularly around the how to pay and the wording around sending the notice to owner on the reverse.

If you look at the judgement of Als bar V Wandsworth (link in previous post) It goes into great detail on this point and the ajudicator in this case found that the ticket was not valid as a result. Its about 20 pages but its worth reading it in detail. When I looked at a ticket I had received there must have been half a dozen errors all of which the ajudicator in that case said rendered the ticket invalid.

So even if the date of issue is on the tickets theres still likely to be other errors.

The next area for salvation appears to be the notice to Owner. I received one of those and it was about as non complient with the Road Traffic Act as could be possible. If someone in the council had set about designing a NTO that didnt comply in any way they managed to succeed in Elmbridge.

One of the councils has asked for a high court review of an ajudicators decision around non complient tickets which is due to be heard on the 1st August.

If the council lose it could be curtains for just about every council in the country. Millions claiming back for parking tickets they should never have paid.

reduk054 · 26th July 2006, 11:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by StoneLaughter

Just to further clarify what dw190 says... it must state "Date of Issue: xx/xx/xxxx". "Date: xx/xx/xxxx" is NOT GOOD ENOUGH. It MUST be "Date of Issue". There is NO room for manouevre.

Presumably Stonelaughter, this is still just for council tickets and not my cleverly (!) obtained private "charge notice". Is that correct?

deemacperth · 26th July 2006, 11:58

The wording on the DoT model ticket applies only to DPE regiems, this is councils that have taken on the parking enforcement themselves.

Police PCN's do not have to comply to that model, no doubt there is a model they have to comply to, but I've not seen it yet, try getting in touch with Neil Herron.

Regarding Private run companies. this is purely a contractual agreement so you would have to look at other ways to base your argument. Are the signs displayed adequately and clearly? If not, you can argue that as you were unaware of the conditions, you did not accept them and they have no basis on which to claim breach of contract.

The other argument can be based on the bank charges argument that this is a penalty charge that is against the law and unenforceable.

jayne67 · 26th July 2006, 19:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by dw190

Check Here http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/group...ads_027631.pdf

Look down the doc to Annex 12 1 on page 5 you will see a specimin PCN.

The vital issue with dates is that the PCN must have a "Date of Issue" because all the requirements for payment are XX days from the "Date of Issue" If there is no date of issue how are you expected to know when to pay within XX days including the "Date of Issue"

Sorry for being such a pain. On the back of the ticket it gives instruction for payment, which says within 28 days of the 'date of issue'. Because mine doesn't actually say date of issue, just date, is the ticket still invalid?

Edit: Also noticed that there is no contravention code on my ticket. Have I read the link correct, does there need to be a code? All there is is the description ie. parked after expiry of paid for time.

dw190 · 26th July 2006, 21:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by jayne67

Sorry for being such a pain. On the back of the ticket it gives instruction for payment, which says within 28 days of the 'date of issue'. Because mine doesn't actually say date of issue, just date, is the ticket still invalid?

Edit: Also noticed that there is no contravention code on my ticket. Have I read the link correct, does there need to be a code? All there is is the description ie. parked after expiry of paid for time.

12.3 (e) Contravention Code and Details of the Contravention.

Its bloody amazing how every time you look at a PCN you seem to find another error. Write to them in the nicest possible way and as sure as I have a hole in my rs they will reject your informal appeal. (This is Standard Practice)

You will then after a short while receive a Notice to Owner. Lets see what a cock they make of them. You can then have some fun taking the urine out of them.

AdrianH · 27th July 2006, 04:38

Before movng down to Kent, i used to get tickets every now and again living in London.

Is there a way i can request all tickets for my car, check them and try and claim, as all of them were bull.

dw190 · 27th July 2006, 08:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdrianH

Before movng down to Kent, i used to get tickets every now and again living in London.

Is there a way i can request all tickets for my car, check them and try and claim, as all of them were bull.

You could try but will have difficulty if you can't produce a record of the isued PCN. If you still have the original PCN's or the Numbers you may have a chance.

rogerebaker · 27th July 2006, 10:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by jayne67

Sorry for being such a pain. On the back of the ticket it gives instruction for payment, which says within 28 days of the 'date of issue'. Because mine doesn't actually say date of issue, just date, is the ticket still invalid?

Edit: Also noticed that there is no contravention code on my ticket. Have I read the link correct, does there need to be a code? All there is is the description ie. parked after expiry of paid for time.

Read this its a bit long but the answer to all your questions are in here

http://www.parkingandtrafficappeals....uments/Als.pdf

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