Ticket In Asda's Car Park 2

[k23d26]

I have had to start a new thread as my other one was closed as there seemed to be a dispute going on between a member and a moderator!
Anyway, in defence of myself, as there were many people who sounded as though they would like to see me hung, drawn and quartered because I dared to park in a disabled parking space, I NEVER park in a space allocated for the disabled EVER and have often driven around for 20+ minutes trying to find a space whilst there are many disabled spaces free.
On that particular day, I was actually in a state of shock. I had just had all my money pinched, on a Saturday before a 2 day bank holiday so there was no way I could sort anthing out, with no food in the cupboards, very little gas and electricity in the meters and 2 young children to feed and no family or friends nearby to borrow money from. Now you lot may be unforgiving because I dared to take a disabled space when there were so many free, but I really wasn't thinking clearly at the time. I just wanted to get some tablets and go home, where I cried all day because I was in despair.
I thought this site was about giving advice about issues, not condemning others?
For years banks have told us that we must pay extortionate fees for bank charges. We paid up thinking the bank is law so they must be right, £1000's upon £1000's, year in year out. They charged us because they could. But now we're fighting back and getting back OUR money because what they have been charging is not proportionate to the actual losses to the bank. Correct? Then why is it fitting that a man in a florescent jacket can issue me with a parking ticket that may take all of 3 minutes to fill out and charge me £40 because I'm parked in a space with a picture of a wheelchair painted on the floor? Have I caused £40 of losses to that company? Is the money going to a disabled person that I may have inconvenienced? No to both questions. If we are saying that it's not ok for banks to charge us when we have knowingly or mistakenly gone over our overdraft limit or issued a cheque that's bounced when we know that we will be charged, then why should we accept that it's ok to be charged extortionately high fees for parking tickets?
Tracie

[blueskies]

I have taken a look at your closed thread and can see why it was closed. Regarding you parking ticket, I'm afraid that I don't think you have a leg to stand on. Parking enforcement is to keep the traffic situation flowing. Disabled spaces are for disabled persons only to use. I can understand that, due to the other things going on that day you didn't see, didn't realise etc. but you will have to take this on the chin and pay it.

Parking charges are a lawful penalty (it is designed to act as a punishment)

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[Prospero]

Originally Posted by blueskies

Parking enforcement is to keep the traffic situation flowing. Disabled spaces are for disabled persons only to use.

That is surely true for parking on public roads or on council property where there are relevant bye-laws which permit the issue of penalties. I was under the impression that in the present case the car was parked on private property belonging to Asda, which is a whole different scenario.

[JimTheGent]

I have not seen your other thread but if as you say you were parked in Asda's car park and they do not have a policy of putting tickets on the cars, then you should speak with Asda. Clearly if Asda has free parking and no enforcement, no notices and no clear parking rules displayed, the warden had no rights to issue a ticket.

As far as I am aware, Asda is not a public car park. However, in some cases they are attached to a public car park or they have warden controlled car parks. You need to clarify the issue with Asda first before you can decide if the ticket was issued correctly and legitimately.

By the way, in my opinion if there are several spaces available for disabled people then common sense should prevail. Where I live there is a 40 car disabled car park which only ever has two cars in it at any one time. The other car parks have disabled bays too - mostly empty. It is nonsense to leave all these empty spaces then fine a driver for using one when there are still lots free for disabled people to use. Obviously if you take up a disabled space and there is nowhere for the disabled driver to park then it is a different argument.

People who pass judgement instead of giving advice are the same people who would argue if the sky is blue or water is wet. Nobody knows what someone else is going through at a particular moment in time and therefore nobody has the right to judge another person. It is a parking space at the end of the day - hardly a hanging offence is it.

[veryannoyed]

I was going to post to your other thread, until I got to the bottom of it and saw it was closed... I recently had a 'run in' with the very same moderator, so I'd better be extra politically-correct, fluffy bunnified and non-contravertial so no more dummies get spat out

Some years ago I parked in a disabled bay at a Tesco's. Now, BEFORE you get on your high horses, let me explain...

It was very quiet on the car park, loads of spaces. Out of, I dunno, 30 or 40 disabled spaces, 1, yes ONE was occupied. It was raining a lot, and I was only nipping in for bread or milk or something. I parked in the FURTHEST disabled bay from the doors. Got the picture? sitting comfortably? then I shall continue...

As I locked my car and proceeded to the entrance, the 'security gaurd' came rushing over towards me waving his hands about shouting "Oi, you can't park there!"... the following scenario played out...

ME: Why not?
SG: Because its disabled only, can't you see?
ME: Is this Tesco's carpark, or public highway?
SG: It is our private property and you can't park there!
ME: But why not?
SG: Because its illegal, you're not disabled
ME: Illegal?
SG: Yes! now move it
ME: SO... are you discriminating against me for being able bodied?
SG: (suddenly with wind taken out of sails) Er... what?
ME: You are saying that because I am able bodied, as far as you can tell, that I can't park there?
SG: Yes!
ME: I think you'd better get the store manager
SG: What?
ME: You heard, either get him/her here now, or I'll report you for discrimination

... eventually the manager met me at "customer services" desk and I relayed what had happened. He confirmed that it was Tesco's own private land, and as such no, none of the parking restrictions were enforceable in law. However, he said that he hoped people would generally obey the markings to allow 'equal opportunity' for their shoppers. I pointed out that equal means equal, and therefore they should make all parking bays wider, so that everyone could find it easier to get in and out of their cars with bags of shopping regardless of whether or not they posessed an orange badge. To my surprise, he agreed!

FOR THE RECORD: before I get accused by a certain moderator of having "an un-natural fear or hatred of disabled people", I DO NOT! - had the 'security guard' at Tesco's been more polite to start with, I probably would have moved to another spot, I just decided that day to stick up for principles Disabled people shouldn't be discriminated against - I FULLY AGREE, but that does not mean able bodied people should be discriminated against! - equality means equality, surely?... I now expect dozens of people to totally misquote me on that and rant and rave on...

Just imagine the outcry there would be if the following parking spaces were introduced:
Ginger-haired parking only
Over 6'4" tall parking only
Blue-eyed parking only
Lesbian parking only
Eskimo parking only
Non-smokers parking only
Mercedes driver parking only
Single Father parking only
Christian worshiper parking only
etc. etc. etc....
NONE of these would be in the remotest bit acceptable, yet disabled only parking is so vigorously defended. Logically, it is no different from any of the above is it? It is simply picking out a sector of the population, marginalised by one of more of their inherent characteristics, and giving them favouritism at the expense of discriminating against everyone who doesn't meet the criteria of that marginalisation.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE realise that I am merely trying to point out the logical argument here before you all launch a flame war!


Anyway, I think the key here is to find out the legal status of the carpark at ASDA. If they own it, then it becomes a whole lot more difficult to enforce charges on it, especially penalty charges. I'd suggest all the charges would have to be clearly displayed, with something to the effect of "by parking on these premises you agree to pay any of the charges due" type thing.

A year or so ago I sucessfully helped a friend challenge a parking ticket he got at a rail station. The parking was managed by an outside firm (NCP I think). My mate had to park in what wasn't an officially designated space, but it was sort of along a fence in an odd corner of the over-full car park, and in no-way did his parking block or inconvenience anyone else. He paid and stuck his ticket in the car and we both went off to London for the day.
Upon return, he found a ticket slapped to his screen. It was one of those "you owe us £50 but if you pay yesterday it will only be £25" things. I got him to take photos of the car in location before he drove off. I told him to write to the company enclosing the photo and valid parking ticket and ask for the charge to be dropped. They replied that unless it was now paid in full (£50) they would issue court proceedings forthwith. We then went back to the carpark and read (and photographed) the sign. It did say something along the lines of "by entering this carpark you agree to all the rules and charges etc. etc.".
One of the rules was that you had to park in a designated bay.
To cut a long story short, we sucessfully argued that the lettering of the sign was way too small to be read from a car, and as most of the information was only inlcuded on the one sign on the way in (not repeated on the one by the ticket machine), and that by stopping to read it you would block the traffic on the road, it was quite unreasonable for anyone to be expected to comply with all the rules. We had done as best we could by parking out of anyones way and paying the fee due.
A long legally-waffley letter and lots of photos worked wonders, and they replied with the usual "as a gesture of goodwill on this occassion" twaddle and dropped the charges

...here endeth my post

*awaits the moderators axe*

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veryannoyed I like the idea for designated spaces to all different groups of people. But what singles parking- could be a dating car park!! I did read the previous thread and the question was answered before someone went off on one related to what a disability was because someone who parked in a designated diasabled bay when they could walk, disability does not mean you have to be in a wheelchair. Maybe someone could quote the law that relates to parking in disabled bay so that it is clear what the Law re disabled bays are then we can all be clear.

[Bookworm]

Just imagine the outcry there would be if the following parking spaces were introduced:

(...)

NONE of these would be in the remotest bit acceptable, yet disabled only parking is so vigorously defended. Logically, it is no different from any of the above is it? It is simply picking out a sector of the population, marginalised by one of more of their inherent characteristics, and giving them favouritism at the expense of discriminating against everyone who doesn't meet the criteria of that marginalisation.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE realise that I am merely trying to point out the logical argument here before you all launch a flame war!

That's not logic, that's sophistry.

Does any of the above category cause a significant mobility problem to any of those categories? Of course not.

So your whole argument falls by the wayside.

I happen to have been on both sides of that fence. Like a few of you, I used to grumble (although, I am glad to say, not quite as virulent a manner as some people on here) at the way disabled people seemed to get so many advantages, and so on... I, however, never EVER, parked on a disabled spot. I'm funny like that.

Then, tragedy struck, as it has a habit of doing, even, or maybe especially, to people who think themselves immune.

And I realised then how pathetically grateful I am to be only a few steps from my car when things go wrong. How useful, nay, indispensable, it is to have those couple of extra inches to open the door. How those parking spaces do not confer me an advantage over "normal" people, they merely put me closer to an even keel.

In the end, it shouldn't even be about the legality. It should be about how, as decent human beings, we have a moral duty to assist those who are less fortunate. It is unfortunate indeed that there are so many non-decent ones that it has had to become a legal issue. One would have hoped that relying on good will alone should have ben sufficient, but it obviously wasn't the case. And people found excuse, any excuse, to justify themselves: "It was raining hard"... "There was nowhere else" "I was only going to be 5 mns anyway", etc... until it had to be enforced the hard way, at the detriment of the genuine person in need of help.

But please try to remember that no matter how self-righteous you get about that parking ticket, you have the privilege to be able to walk normally. Believe me, you will never know how precious that is until you don't have it any more.

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[veryannoyed]

Bookworm, I agree, I am NOT at all heartless as some who don't bother to read my posts in their entirity may summise!

Obviously I was being deliberately bizarre in my suggestions of alternative parking bays to try and illustrate a point! No, ginger-haired people are not at a mobility disadvantage just by virtue of ginger hair.

But the flip-side of this is that not all drivers of disabled-badge cars have significant mobility problems either. How often do we see it abused by other family members parking on double-yellows in the high street whilst they run into the post office, or whatever.

And then what about say the elderly (or whatever the correct PC term is these days) who may not be to swift on their feet, but not entitled to a disabled badge. Or a single mum with a twin baby buggy. Or any other group of people that could be catagorised in some way or other? All of these people, it could be argued, have issues that could be helped by them being given wider parking bays.
Have you ever seen a mother with a twin buggy and a load of shopping try and sort herself out and get everything into the car? The buggy won't fit between two cars in a standard space, so one child has to be left in the buggy in the roadway whilst the other is strapped into the child-seat. Then there is the whole rigmarole of getting the shopping and buggy into the boot etc.
The point is that EVERYONE should have a decent size parking space regardless of their personal circumstances! I just cannot see why it is acceptable to ONLY single out disabled-badge holders for special treatment, or "equal treatment" if that is what you want to call it.
I have noticed that some of the really big stores now have mother-and-baby parking bays to make life easier. (though surely they should be designated parent-and-child to be PC?!) So obviosuly some shops are thinking along the same lines as me.


I have on many occassions tried to excercise "good will" as you call it, by for example, holding doors open for people (as I was always taught as a child was good manners in any case), asking if I could assist a wheelchair customer in the supermarket when she was looking at items on a shelf she clearly couldn't reach, offering to take drinks to the table when I worked behind a bar etc. However, I have been often met with abuse along the lines of "how dare you patronise me just because..." So sometimes it is difficult to win.

It is difficult to understand different peoples perceptions of 'equality'. To me I tend to think of it in the literal sense - being equal to all parties. However, some people think equality means that some people should be treated in favour of others. It is an odd scenario indeed. Reminds me of the poll-tax rows... personally I couldn't see how taxing everyone at exactly the same rate could be deemed unfair, but deemed unfair it was, and eventually it was scrapped. Now apparently the fair way to tax people is to count up how many toilets they have in their house and see whether or not they have a conservatory and live in a nice neighbourhood, and charge them all different rates accordingly. That's fair? Why should your contribution towards street lighing be more than your neighbour just because you have a downstairs loo?


Someone once remarked that as a single, straight, uk born, white caucasian, able bodied, atheist, employed, house owning, car driving adult male, he was the most discriminated against person he knew!
When asked what he meant by that, he went on to explain about all the things he was NOT entitled to claim / have / take advantage of, and all the taxes, fees etc he DID have to pay because of who he was... it is an interesting point, and was factually correct on every argument!

There was some joke on TV once about a one-legged black lesbian single mother etc. etc. that I can't remember, and wouldn't dare post anyway for fear of the sound of multiple moderators bursting blood vessels



aaaaaaaanyway...

with regard to law, I wouldn't have though disabled parking laws apply to private land? As far as I am aware it is either national highway law or local council byelaws that cover this sort of thing on public land.

[veryannoyed]

P.S. "sophistry" - love that word, never been accused of that before

[Giveitback]

Just a thought but have you tried writing to store manager explaining your story?

[PKea]

"Have I caused £40 of losses to that company? "

Well if that disabled person then decides he wont shop at Asda anymore because he/she cant park and get access, then Yes Asda will lose money in sales.

[Analogue_rogue]

I recieved a ticket in asda car park.... I couldnt help but notice the company responsible for the ticket was from scotland.. and any dispute had to go back to scotland.. ( alarm bells sounded) i used to be a police officer and from what i remember a company in scotland runs under scottish law not english law.. anyhow that turned out to be irrelevant in the end.. look at the wording on the ticket... its all about the wording.. if your on private land (which asda car parks are if they are using private parking enforcement) they CANNOT fine you or FORCE you to park in ANY BAYS!!!! and as for the parking ticket.. i simply emailed them and asked them to confirm where a " non designated area" was because i had no idea...... they never replied and i never had to pay anything..

I would suggest emailing them and asking where under the road traffic act 1991 ( de criminilisation of parking) it states that the disabled bay you parked in is registered as a disabled bay ( ALL road markings and restrictions MUST be registered and held at the local authority and approved before they can be enforced... if they are not you dont pay because the ticket is not lawful )

( i used to be a parking attendant before i was a police officer.. but dontpanic i just drive my bus now )

Just to illustrate a poiint asweell.. i know for a fact that ASDA dont enforce badges.. your registration number is held on a register at customer services.... I know this because my mother takes my aunt and they dont have a disabled badge yet are allowed in the disabled bays/area......


And i just noticed someone asking what laws cover parking.. ALL parking private or otherwise are covered by RTA 1991. it was an amendment that allowed parking attendants to issue FPN ( fixed penalty notices) although it goes against common law which states all men will not be guilty until proven in a recognised court, which makes all parking tickets from council illegal.. (NOT FPN from police.. because they technically have to ask you to enter into the FPN system.. although i know it doesnt always happen like that.) hope that all helps you..

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[patdavies]

Originally Posted by Analogue_rogue

And i just noticed someone asking what laws cover parking.. ALL parking private or otherwise are covered by RTA 1991. it was an amendment that allowed parking attendants to issue FPN ( fixed penalty notices)

Could you provide a reference for this please. AFAIK, the RTA applies only to the public highway.

Even on the public highway, the Act does not allow a parking attendant to issue an FPN - they can only issue PCNs (Penalty Charge Notice) which are enforced via the civil justice system. FPNs can only be issued by plod or plod traffic wardens, and are enforced via the criminal justice system = that's why the RTA1991 refers to decriminalised parking enforcement for councils

[cybelle_2000]

Originally Posted by Analogue_rogue

I would suggest emailing them and asking where under the road traffic act 1991 ( de criminilisation of parking) it states that the disabled bay you parked in is registered as a disabled bay ( ALL road markings and restrictions MUST be registered and held at the local authority and approved before they can be enforced... if they are not you dont pay because the ticket is not lawful )

( i used to be a parking attendant before i was a police officer.. but dontpanic i just drive my bus now .

I rang Wigan council to ask if the Disabled Parking Bays on a private retail car park on which I was issued the ticket on was actually registered with the Council. They wouldn't tell me anything and just kept saying its on Private land its nothing to do with us, take it up with them.

Which leads me to believe that maybe private car parks may not have to register their Disabled Parking Bays with the council in order for them to issue tickets?? Please tell me I am wrong.

The company say appeals to be made within 14 days and I have to send them the £50.00 upfront with the appeal letter !! , and yes it then says please allow 14 days for the reply to the appeal. So even if you attempted to appeal without sending the money you would incur further charges - it' s a no win situation!!! That in itself must be unlawful - ill never get my money back even if I do win the appeal.

[davehaley]

Can I just say that I am disapointed that people on this forum are complaining about getting a charge for parking in a diabled parking space. ASDA go to extreme lengths to to tell customers about diabled parking spaces with things like signs in frot of each space and certainly at the stores I go to there are audible warnings along with the painted wheelchair on the tarmac. Nobody can park in one of these spaces without knowing it and if they do they deserve to get fined.

No I am not disabled, I just hate it when ignorant people ignore the signs for these spaces that have been provided at a cost to the store to allow not so fortunate customers to shop there.

Anyone who thinks it is OK to park in these spaces thould be ashamed and as for arguing with the store about it they should have just hung thier head, gone back to the car and moved it.

[patdavies]

Originally Posted by davehaley

Can I just say that I am disapointed that people on this forum are complaining about getting a charge for parking in a diabled parking space. ASDA go to extreme lengths to to tell customers about diabled parking spaces with things like signs in frot of each space and certainly at the stores I go to there are audible warnings along with the painted wheelchair on the tarmac. Nobody can park in one of these spaces without knowing it and if they do they deserve to get fined.

No I am not disabled, I just hate it when ignorant people ignore the signs for these spaces that have been provided at a cost to the store to allow not so fortunate customers to shop there.

Anyone who thinks it is OK to park in these spaces thould be ashamed and as for arguing with the store about it they should have just hung thier head, gone back to the car and moved it.

Fine, I'm glad you got that off your chest.

However, the question was whether the 'ticket' is legally enforceable; it wasn't about the morality of the issue.

[patdavies]

Originally Posted by cybelle_2000

I rang Wigan council to ask if the Disabled Parking Bays on a private retail car park on which I was issued the ticket on was actually registered with the Council. They wouldn't tell me anything and just kept saying its on Private land its nothing to do with us, take it up with them.

Absolutely true. Enforcement is nothing whatsoever to do with the Council.

Originally Posted by cybelle_2000

Which leads me to believe that maybe private car parks may not have to register their Disabled Parking Bays with the council in order for them to issue tickets?? Please tell me I am wrong.

They do not have to register with the Council. They cannot issue tickets in a private car park

Originally Posted by cybelle_2000

The company say appeals to be made within 14 days and I have to send them the £50.00 upfront with the appeal letter !! , and yes it then says please allow 14 days for the reply to the appeal. So even if you attempted to appeal without sending the money you would incur further charges - it' s a no win situation!!! That in itself must be unlawful - ill never get my money back even if I do win the appeal.

There is no right to issue a ticket, much less enforce it. See the other threads about parking on private land.

You do not have to follow their procedures in order to "appeal". You simply assert that no contract exists between you and that you will not pay. These people will continue to send bluff and bluster letters to try an bully you into paying; they may pass your case onto a DCA - it is simply all harassment. Either report them to the Police for harassment or demand that they take you to the County Court for judgement.

Don't worry that the charges increase - none of it is payable anyway.

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[cybelle_2000]

Originally Posted by patdavies

They cannot issue tickets in a private car park.

Pat

I have been back to the car park in question to check out the signs, and yes regrettably they are there but they must have only been put there in the last few months.

So it seems that yes I am in breech of the private contract . So they would be within their rights to issue the ticket wouldn't they?

[POCA]

They can issue all the tickets they like but they don't have any of the rights (or obligations) under the Road Traffic Act 1991 or Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984.

Penalty charges in contracts are unenforceable as a matter of law. Anything they try to claim from you must be a reasonable pre-estimate of loss, or actual loss which must be proved.

[TETSUO]

hmmm, interesting debate going on here. I can't say I agree with 'veryannoyed' on the disabled parking issue. These spaces are made available and wider for a reason and should not be abused by the able bodied folk. I have been shopping in the rain and have had to park miles away from the store. I just ran to the entrance- something many disabled people simply couldn't do.

It infuriates me when I see able bodied people parking in disabled parking spaces. It's just bloody lazy! You'll be moaning becuase you aren't entitled to use a shop mobility scooter next. C'mon man - be realistic! Able bosied people take their freedom for granted. Little tiny things like parking spaces make a big difference to disabled people.

The only comment I have which may endear me to you veryannoyed is that I completely disagree with 'parent with child' spaces ! Disabled people don't choose to have a disability but parents choose to spawn children. If not "being able to park close to Sainburys' was a consideration when making their life choices, they shouldn't have any bleedin kids! Park where you can like the rest of us and drag the [edited] across the car park!

I'm done