Clamped on Private Land

[srrray]

Yesterday I was unloading tools from my car (parked in a private car park at the rear of my son's rented flat) and carrying them up to his abode on the first floor so that I could add some extra security devices to his entrance door, as he was burgled last Wednesday.

I stopped for a couple of minutes to have a cup of tea and in the intervening period, a clamp had been placed on my car by a local clamping firm.

I had to pay a fee of £75 to have it released, after which I noticed two signs warning that vehicles would be clamped if illegally parked. One of the signs was quite large but placed on a wall a very dark archway under the building, that you drive through to get into the car park. The other sign was much smaller but not readily noticeable (1.5cm w x 31cm h).

Neither sign indicated the release fee cost, so how do I know if £75 is a valid fee? Do I have any comeback on this? Also, are there any regulations in force for the size of signage needed to inform motorists of clamping activities?

Finally, the SIA website states that the 'front line' operative must issue a receipt that gives details of where the offence took place, the time, his licence number, his name and his signature. This he did, but omitted to give his name (I'm assuming that he should have printed his name in block capitals?). He did sign the receipt but it is totally unreadable. Can I ask his company to send me proof of his identity, such as a copy of his licence (complete with mugshot)? Is this against the Data Protection Act?

This has been a very expensive week for me! I replaced two laptop computers that had been stolen at a cost of £600 so my son and his girlfriend could continue their university work. I insured their home contents for a £157 premium (they'd only just moved into the flat so they hadn't organised insurance themselves). And finally, received a £75 charge for the parking offence, not to mention all the travelling costs from my house in Poole to my son's place in Bristol!!

Oh, and the £70 I spent on additional security devices too !!

Would appreciate any advice from someone out there.

Thanks in anticipation of such.

Steve.

[BotB]

Have a read of this case, it may help. However, I doubt the people who clamped you will pay you back willingly so you'd have to be prepared to issue a claim for the money back.


Vine v Waltham Forest [2000] EWCA Civ 106 (5 April 2000)

[reidnet]

B & Q do a nice cheap rechargeable Angle Grinder for about £25 , Handy to have one in boot of car..lol

[lookinforinfo]

You can download this pdf file from the Citizens Advice which may help you.
They are supposed to include the SIA licence no. on the receipt. If they haven't
done that, it may mean that they have not got one. This in itself is a criminal
offence and therefore your fine is unlawful

http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/nm/t_w...ivate_land.pdf

[srrray]

Originally Posted by BotB

Have a read of this case, it may help. However, I doubt the people who clamped you will pay you back willingly so you'd have to be prepared to issue a claim for the money back.


Vine v Waltham Forest [2000] EWCA Civ 106 (5 April 2000)

Thanks BotB,

Unfortunately, I wasn't suffering from a serious gynaecological problem at the time!

Of the two signs that I noticed after I had been clamped, one was hidden in a dark alleyway and the other was so small that it was difficult to read from a distance further than 10 feet away. This is the only defence that I have to be honest.

Regards,

Steve.

[srrray]

Originally Posted by lookinforinfo

You can download this pdf file from the Citizens Advice which may help you.
They are supposed to include the SIA licence no. on the receipt. If they haven't
done that, it may mean that they have not got one. This in itself is a criminal
offence and therefore your fine is unlawful

www.adviceguide.org.uk/nm/t_wheel-clamping_on_private_land. pdf

Thanks LFI,

I have seen this before. The SIA licence number was on the receipt. I have traced the name of the individual 'owner' of this licence number, but I cannot prove that it was he who clamped me as I didn't see an ID card with his mugshot on display.

Also, I have read that the clamper has to write his name and sign the receipt. He only satisfied the latter, and it was so unreadable that again, I could not link it to the 'owner' of the licence number.

For the last 10 days, I have been trying to obtain advice from my local Citizens Advice Bureau, but they are so short of advisors that they shut their doors at midday. Being a full time daytime employee does not help me find time to visit the CAB other than at lunchtimes.

I thin k my next step is to seek the advice of a solicitor at one of those free 30 minute meetings.

Regards.

[BotB]

Unfortunately, I wasn't suffering from a serious gynaecological problem at the time!

I'm sure that's a relief for you!

Get some photos of the area where you were parked and the signs showing they were obscured as indicated in your posts. Then write to the clamping company requesting a full refund or you will issue a claim against them for trespass to your car.

[steve dunn]

The human rights act states that every person has the right to earn a living , if this was your work vehicle and you were unable to continue to work because of the clamp then they are breaching your human rights . Inform them of this and demand your money back or you will go to court .
This goes all the way back to the Magna Carta 1215.
You will find it all on the net

CHECK OUT "NEIL HERRON" PARKING TICKET HEAVEN

	Fight a Motoring Ticket kit Follow this link to read the review of the "Fight a motoring ticket" kit by Lawpack. Everything you need to challenge your motoring ticket. Most motoring tickets go unchallenged. Most which are challenged are challenged successfully.

[Bert52]

Originally Posted by reidnet

B & Q do a nice cheap rechargeable Angle Grinder for about £25 , Handy to have one in boot of car..lol

All well apart from the fact of being charged with criminal damage.
You would need to determine the fact that the clamp was illegal-which is very hard to do.

Which then leaves you with criminal damage to their property.

Not very wise.

[Bert52]

Originally Posted by steve dunn

The human rights act states that every person has the right to earn a living , if this was your work vehicle and you were unable to continue to work because of the clamp then they are breaching your human rights . Inform them of this and demand your money back or you will go to court .
This goes all the way back to the Magna Carta 1215.
You will find it all on the net

CHECK OUT "NEIL HERRON" PARKING TICKET HEAVEN

Absolute rubbish. The most unbelievable post I have ever read.

[Bert52]

This is a no chance fight.
Is the place you parked anything to do with your son's rented property? And is there an agreement for a 'visitor' to park there?

Otherwise-

Unfortunately, the company seems to have acted legally in what they have done. It's basically trespass what you did.

If you sued they could counterclaim trespass against you onto their property-you would never win, or at least gain.

[patdavies]

Originally Posted by Bert52

All well apart from the fact of being charged with criminal damage.

Only if the Police decide to do so; it's nothing to do with the clamping company.

And there would have to be proof beyond reasonable doubt that you actually caused the damage. Just because the clamp has been removed from your vehicle is not proof that you damaged it.

[Zamzara]

Originally Posted by Bert52

This is a no chance fight.
Is the place you parked anything to do with your son's rented property? And is there an agreement for a 'visitor' to park there?

Otherwise-

Unfortunately, the company seems to have acted legally in what they have done. It's basically trespass what you did.

There is no general right to take someone's property just because they tresspassed.

Clamping is only legal if there are clear signs, including the amount of the release fee, and if SIA regulations are followed. So if any of these things are breached then the clamping is illegal.

[Bert52]

Originally Posted by patdavies

Only if the Police decide to do so; it's nothing to do with the clamping company.

And there would have to be proof beyond reasonable doubt that you actually caused the damage. Just because the clamp has been removed from your vehicle is not proof that you damaged it.

Not true.

If the police decide there is no criminal damage, which would be odd considering the clamp would have had to be removed by someone other than the clamping company (removal of it with no damage is still a removal of it), then there is nothing stopping the clamping company from enforcing their own action (a summons) which is what they do anyway.

Why would a total stranger remove a clamp in any case on a car that doesn't belong to them?

Are you suggesting that a car can be logged as clamped, the clamp is removed by 'somebody' and the owner drives their car away with no comeback at all?

Ever noticed the police, councils etc use clamping firms themselves?

[Bert52]

Originally Posted by Zamzara

There is no general right to take someone's property just because they tresspassed.

Clamping is only legal if there are clear signs, including the amount of the release fee, and if SIA regulations are followed. So if any of these things are breached then the clamping is illegal.

There is no 'taking someone's property' - that is theft.
Within this sense of trespass I can detain the car that is on my property.

What if I closed up gates that surrounded my property with your car on it, which shouldn't be there in any case, and I was due to go on holiday to Australia for six months?

Am I stealing your car? Or have you trespassed onto my property with your car and the only way to remove your car is to knock down my locked gates?

Do I have to have a sign outside my own private property where I live in the country where it is unlikely I would have this scenario but, nevertheless, it happens?

Or is it more of a case you are in the wrong regardless of signs?

How can you instigate legal proceedings against any clamping firm that has no law that regulates them but only guidelines and expect to win because you have trespassed in the first place?

Why aren't clamping firms forever in court and losing?

[rogerebaker]

Originally Posted by Bert52

Not true.

If the police decide there is no criminal damage, which would be odd considering the clamp would have had to be removed by someone other than the clamping company (removal of it with no damage is still a removal of it), then there is nothing stopping the clamping company from enforcing their own action (a summons) which is what they do anyway.

Why would a total stranger remove a clamp in any case on a car that doesn't belong to them?

Are you suggesting that a car can be logged as clamped, the clamp is removed by 'somebody' and the owner drives their car away with no comeback at all?

Ever noticed the police, councils etc use clamping firms themselves?

BBC NEWS | England | 'Superhero' takes on clampers

the perfect solution

[Zamzara]

Originally Posted by Bert52

There is no 'taking someone's property' - that is theft.
Within this sense of trespass I can detain the car that is on my property.

What if I closed up gates that surrounded my property with your car on it, which shouldn't be there in any case, and I was due to go on holiday to Australia for six months?

Am I stealing your car?

No because the necessary intent for theft is not present in that situation. With clamping it is. Clamping is only ever legal with consent, via suitable signs, and and if other conditions are met. Cite for the claim that you can deliberately detain property from those who tresspass?

Or is it more of a case you are in the wrong regardless of signs?

The only wrong is tresspass, which is a minor, non-criminal matter. It doesn't justify deliberate retaliation.

How can you instigate legal proceedings against any clamping firm that has no law that regulates them but only guidelines and expect to win because you have trespassed in the first place?

Why aren't clamping firms forever in court and losing?

There are laws. SIA regulations are not guidelines anymore: compliance is a requirement.

Clamping can be extrortion or theft depending on the circumstances:

BBC NEWS | England | Hampshire | Cowboy clampers given seven years

On a recent Radio 5 phone-in several people said they sued clampers and won a refund.

[patdavies]

Originally Posted by Bert52

Not true.

If the police decide there is no criminal damage, which would be odd considering the clamp would have had to be removed by someone other than the clamping company (removal of it with no damage is still a removal of it), then there is nothing stopping the clamping company from enforcing their own action (a summons) which is what they do anyway.

I'm sorry, are you saying that the clamping company would issue criminal proceedings in a Magistrates' Court? In some cases, it is possible to remove a clamp without damaging it - in which case there is no damage; criminal or otherwise

Originally Posted by Bert52

Why would a total stranger remove a clamp in any case on a car that doesn't belong to them?

I don't know or care; neither will the Magistrates. For a criminal prosecution to succeed, it is necessary to prove beyond all reasonable doubt that you did it - not that you are the most likely because you benefit.

Originally Posted by Bert52

Are you suggesting that a car can be logged as clamped, the clamp is removed by 'somebody' and the owner drives their car away with no comeback at all?

Yup, you're starting to understand

Originally Posted by Bert52

Ever noticed the police, councils etc use clamping firms themselves?

Statutory clamping by Police and DVLA is a different matter, it is a criminal offence, not criminal damage, to remove such a clamp. For council clamping, if you can remove the clamp, then you are only liable for the PCN, if it is valid. This is one of the reasons that Councils tow rather than clamp.

	Fight a Motoring Ticket kit Follow this link to read the review of the "Fight a motoring ticket" kit by Lawpack. Everything you need to challenge your motoring ticket. Most motoring tickets go unchallenged. Most which are challenged are challenged successfully.

[johno1066]

Originally Posted by Bert52

This is a no chance fight.
Is the place you parked anything to do with your son's rented property? And is there an agreement for a 'visitor' to park there?

Otherwise-

Unfortunately, the company seems to have acted legally in what they have done. It's basically trespass what you did.

If you sued they could counterclaim trespass against you onto their property-you would never win, or at least gain.

Arthur v Anker states clearly that the driver of a vehicle has to consent to having his/her vehicles clamped. This is done by way of having signs that are PROMINENT. If the signs are not clear then on the balance of probablities consent was not given. Clamping is actually a tort of trespass and interference with goods Vine v Waltham Forest London which can only be over ridden by the consent.

The act of Wheel-clamping could also be a criminal offence under the Administration of Justice Act 1970, which makes criminal the collection of civil debts by causing distress and public humiliation.

Lastly there are Human Rights elements to clamping that have not yet been tested although are likely to be within the near future.