anybody pick holes in this ?!

[taff999]

[shywazz]

seems you have fallen prey to the dreaded wardens my friend, myself had over stayed the fee i had paid, and got a nasty ticket on my screen, had to pay the money harsh as it was. you paid untill 16.11 hrs and was ticketed at 16.26 due to you over staying, these people sit and wait for the fee/time to expire then pounce, result, big fine, you could try argue the point, i'm sure the nice peeps on the forum might have few suggestions to hand. dont leave it over the 14 days though if ur going to pay, as this will make the fine double, even more if you ignore it completly. i know its harsh for such a low price, and just a few mins over stay? i;ve been biten twice already, and never again, better to pay for a extra hour whether i need it or not, than get a big fine.

[taff999]

yes i see your point shywazz but im hoping someone sees something like a loophole -the timing i dont have an argument its the date of issue debate im waiting to hear from someone a bit more clued up then me.
thanks for your input shywazz

[wendypowell62]

Read the threads in the Parking Tickets forum. Its the wording that makes the difference, and Im sure you will find all the info you need there.

[shywazz]

hiya soz i could'nt help more, i have looked at the date, 29/08/2006 and can't see anything wrong with it?

[MondeoST24]

The date of issue trick comes under the Road Traffic Act 1991, a high court judge has recently ruled that a ticket without two dates - i.e. date of issue AND date of contravention is a nullity and cannot be enforced.

Your ticket mentions a completely different act so unsure as to your chances. The man for this is Neil Herron, neilherron.blogspot.com

He will tell you if you have a case and how to go about it if you have

[dw190]

Originally Posted by MondeoST24

The date of issue trick comes under the Road Traffic Act 1991, a high court judge has recently ruled that a ticket without two dates - i.e. date of issue AND date of contravention is a nullity and cannot be enforced.

Your ticket mentions a completely different act so unsure as to your chances. The man for this is Neil Herron, neilherron.blogspot.com

He will tell you if you have a case and how to go about it if you have

The Date of Issue will still fall foul of the 1984 act.

The reason is stated on the ECN itself.

"WITHIN FOURTEEN DAYS OF THE DATE OF ISSUE OF THIS NOTICE"

The notice does not have a "Date of Issue" so how is one supposed to calculate when the fourteen days starts and finishes.

You would win this on appeal with a copy of the finding in Moses v Barnet Judicial Review.

[jet_force_juno]

hmmm, I have a similar problem. I live in Cheltenham. The Borough Council still use the 1984 RTA as opposed to the 1991 RTA.

Here is my issue. The 1991 RTA decriminalsed parking offences, and gave the responsibility for issuing tickets to the Council, correct? Ok so my argument would be that if the Councils are now issuing the tickets, surely they must be doing so under the provisions of the 1991 RTA, i.e. they cannot possibly issue tickets under the 1984 RTA since it is not, or never has been, there place to issue tickets under the 1984 RTA (this was always a police thing).

The very nature of the fact that Councils are issuing tickets means that act is decriminalised and the 1991 RTA is being followed.

Please advise as I would like nothing more than to shove these tickets down the throat of the council in court.

[jet_force_juno]

Ok just pulled this off the Dept of Transport wesbite:

"The RTA 1991 provided for the decriminalisation of certain non-endorsable parking offences in London and allows local authorities outside London to apply to the Secretary of State for similar powers. These mainly include parking offences on yellow lines and in parking spaces. It does not include endorsable offences and offences related to obstruction which the police continue to be responsible for. Decriminalised parking enforcement (DPE) powers allow local authorities to take over responsibility for enforcing parking contraventions from the police and to retain the funds received from penalties to fund their enforcement activities. Over 60 authorities outside London are currently operating DPE powers. A number of applications from authorities for DPE powers are pending and more are expected in the future."

I really cannot see how councils can operate their own parking regime (as in the case of taff's and mine (Cheltenham Borough Council)) AND operate under the 1984 RTA. Surely they are mutually exclusive? I am seeking clarification from the Dept of Transport on 0207 944 6483

[jet_force_juno]

ok just spoke to a guy called Ian on the above phone number and here is the deal:

Local Councils are allowed to issue their own tickets, in their own car parks, under the ragulations of the 1984 Act, as long as they DO NOT have decriminalised parking enforcement (DPE) powers.
If they do have such powers then they must issue ticket's under the 1991 Act.

Hmmm, however the Dept. of Transport did advise that whilst they were two seperate acts, the requirements of wording are essentially the same. My tickets state that I must pay "within seven" days, and appeal "within seven days of the offence". However there is no "date of offence" on the ticket. So I am appealing the tickets on these grounds.

[taff999]

great work jetforce!

would you mind posting up your letter for me to have a look at or copy! im not the best at things like this!

[jet_force_juno]

yeah mate just doing the letter now

[jet_force_juno]

Hey, try something like this! Really I don't see the actual difference between an ECH and a PCN. Councils have the same responsibilities. Good luck to all!


Parking Services
Cheltenham Borough Council
PO BOX 12
Promenade
Cheltenham
GL50 1PP



3 September 2006


Dear Sir,

RE: PARKING FINES 153502, 153330, 154226, 154159, 154150 & 154148


I wrote to you on the 21 August 2006 to complain about ticket numbers 153502 & 153330. I have yet to receive a reply. I have received several other tickets since my original letter: I now wish to complain about all of them.
Your tickets are unlawfully worded. As such, a real possibility of prejudice arises from potential uncertainty as to when the periods for payment and appeal begin and end.

There is considerable case law in this country at present regarding the wording of parking tickets. Many councils that operate parking regimes are now finding they have issued unlawful tickets for considerable periods of time. The public have been blissfully unaware that for years, Councils have been issuing tickets that are not enforceable. Part of the problem is that the Councils themselves are not actually aware of their legal responsibilities.

I understand that Cheltenham Borough Council does not have DPE powers, and is thus still operating under the 1984 RTA. On the 1 September, I spoke to the Department of Transport (0207 944 6483), to seek clarification on the 1984 RTA, and advice on the wording of your tickets.
As I now understand, Local Councils are allowed to issue their own tickets, in their own car parks, under the regulations of the 1984 Act, as long as they DO NOT have decriminalised parking enforcement (DPE) powers.
If they do have such powers then they must issue tickets under the 1991 Act.
The Department of Transport did advise that whilst there are two separate acts, the requirements for the wording of tickets is essentially the same. Whether the ticket is a PCN, or an ECN, the tickets must clearly state the date and time that an offence or contravention occurred as well as the date and time the ticket were issued. This allows the owner to:

a) contest the validity of the ticket based on the date and time of the offence
b) have absolute certainty of the exact time frame for payment or appeal

The tickets issued by Cheltenham Borough Council do not contain any of the above information. They show neither a “date of the offence”, nor a “date of issue”. They certainly show a date and time, but this is not specific to any particular event. The date of the offence is not the date of the notice even if, in most cases, the ECN will be issued on the same day as the offence.

The front of the tickets actually state:

YOU ARE REQUIRED TO PAY:
STANDARD CHARGE £60 REDUCED TO
£40 IF PAID WITHIN 7 DAYS

Moving on to the back of the ticket we have:

“To Appeal
All appeals must be in writing and be received within 7 days of the offence.”

Without a date of offence clearly written on your tickets, I cannot be sure that the alleged offence is true. Without a date of issue clearly written on your tickets, I cannot be sure of the time frame for appeal or payment.

I want Cheltenham Borough Council to delete these tickets with immediate effect. Furthermore the Council should consider re-wording the tickets before any concerns over their validity becomes public knowledge.

Yours faithfully

[haydn]

My ECN doesnt mention anything about appeals only timeframes 5 or 10 days to pay, presumably from the only date mentioned on the ticket. It doesnet identify whether the date is an issue or contravention date. I have issued a summoins for £600 in PCNs but this is the only ECN in the batch. Id love to fight it but dont know how.

[patdavies]

ECNs are issued by council parking attendants under the 1984 Act for the parking on the Councils own premises (ie off street parking).

PCNs are issued by council parking attendants under the 1991 Act (decriminalised parking) for parking on the public highway

FPNs are issed by the Police (or Police traffic wardens) for parking on the public highway when a council does not have decriminalised powers.

The 1984 Act and the 1991 Act refer to different things.