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Parking / Traffic Offences A forum to discuss the legalities or unlawfulness of parking/speeding tickets or congestions charges etc.

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Old 25th August 2008, 01:48   #21 (permalink)
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Default Re: Tickets without 2 dates

Quote:
Originally Posted by nero12 View Post
right, the idea is this, the op has a problem.
we post up wht we think is the answer. Other people post what they think is an out. we all club together with what we know and suggest an out.
If it works we add this to the knowlge base to be refered to.
You however wish to argue left is right, monday comes after tuesday, and the op walked up the stairs instead of down. In the end there is 53 posts of bollox. Not helpful.

If you have an out then post. If there isn one then erm leave it. The op will get the message.
We all want to help, but butting in and hijaking with bollox doesnt help.
OP asks if the PATAS ruling that a PCN must have a date of issue and date of contravention is still applicable

The reply mentioned it was and the Barnet case still had some relevance....which is untrue

If the OP went back to the Council and argued that a ruling on a previous revoked piece of legislation still applied it would have failed.
The law has now changed and a date of notice is no longer required instead a date of service is the legal requirement. My advice to quote the need for a date of service and date of contravention as per TMA 2004 was indeed the correct advice depite what you think, dragging up case law on revoked legislation is of no help at all. Trying to cover up wrong advice by claiming old 1991 PCNs where still about some 6 months after the last got issued is of no help to someone asking if the law is still the same as in Aug 2006. Whilst 2 dates are still required the PATAS reference in Bikerpauls post and any mention of the High Court ruling have nothing to do with current legislation.
Why even bother to throw in the fact that some Councils still issue ECNs when we are discussing PCNs is beyond me especially since the two date saga has absolutely nothing to do with an ECN issued under the 1984 RTA?
Instead of ganging up like a bunch of school yard bullies to try and shout me down maybe you should look at the advice being given and consider what is of more help to the OP, correct or incorrect advice?
Whether you like it or not a legal ruling on one peice of legislation cannot just be transfered to another just because you think it should be or it suits your argument. The RTA 1991 and TMA 2004 although both cover parking are 2 completely seperate pieces of legislation with different wording. The TMA revokes the RTA in England and Wales and as such if it HAD been worded to the effect PCNs did only need a single date, any prior ruling on the RTA 1991 legislation would not and could not over rule that.

When you have decided to grow up you may learn to respect the views of others something that is clearly lacking here. Whilst I often disagree with the views of other members I have never felt the need to hurl insults just because I don't see eye to eye. The forum is here to offer advice and debate the legality of the issues raised if you cannot discuss matters like an adult please at least refrain from personal abuse.

Last edited by green_and_mean; 25th August 2008 at 02:01.
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Old 25th August 2008, 12:39   #22 (permalink)
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Default Re: Tickets without 2 dates

I have never seen such rubbish. the TMA does NOT revoke the 1991 RTA.
Road Traffic Act 1991 (c. 40) - Statute Law Database

a simple thought about the offense of causing death by dangerous driving being revoked by the TMA makes it hugely clear that the TMA which is about CPE cannot revoke the RTA.

these are the repeals from the TMA
Traffic Management Act 2004 (c. 1 - Statute Law Database
and
Traffic Management Act 2004 (c. 1 - Statute Law Database
and
Traffic Management Act 2004 (c. 1 - Statute Law Database

see the full text of TMA here Traffic Management Act 2004 (c. 1 - Statute Law Database

Last edited by lamma; 25th August 2008 at 13:20.
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Old 25th August 2008, 12:49   #23 (permalink)
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Default Re: Tickets without 2 dates

Quote:
Originally Posted by lamma View Post
I have never seen such rubbish. the TMA does NOT revoke the 1991 RTA.
Road Traffic Act 1991 (c. 40) - Statute Law Database

a simple thought about the offense of causing death by dangerous driving being revoked by the TMA makes it hugely clear that the TMA which is about CPE cannot revoke the RTA.

these are the repeals from the TMA
Traffic Management Act 2004 (c. 1 - Statute Law Database
and
Traffic Management Act 2004 (c. 1 - Statute Law Database
and
Traffic Management Act 2004 (c. 1 - Statute Law Database

see the full text of TMA herehttp://www.statutelaw.gov.uk/content.aspx?LegType=All+ Legislation&title=traffic +management+act&Year=2004 &searchEnacted=0&extentMa tchOnly=0&confersPower=0& blanketAmendment=0&sortAl pha=0&TYPE=QS&PageNumber= 1&NavFrom=0&parentActiveT extDocId=1606563&ActiveTe xtDocId=1606789&filesize= 6312
Sorry I incorrectly assumed you were intelligent enough to realise I was talking about the sections of both Acts that covered parking. Your link clearly states the TMA now repeals the relevant sections that cover parking maybe you should read the things you post before doing so. What death by dangerous driving has to do with a ruling on a two date PCN eludes me??
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Old 25th August 2008, 13:31   #24 (permalink)
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Default Re: Tickets without 2 dates

yeah right..
"previous revoked piece of legislation"
"The TMA revokes the RTA in England and Wales"

just just can't mislead people to that extent and expect not to brought to book on it.

glad that you agree that two dates are mandatory under both sets of regs - which is what the OP's post is about. Anyone with a single date PCN (unbder either regs ) should fight it - end of.
The advice to councils re reg 10 TMA PCNs even takes Barnet into account i.e.

"Dates and Service
The regulations require that the PCN should be dated and that this should be the date of posting. It will be essential, therefore, that the PCN is actually posted on that date and that Councils should have clear and reliable systems recording the fact and date of postage. However, the time for making representations runs from the date of service of the PCN. It is not a statutory requirement that the date of service be included on the PCN and bearing in mind the rules relating to when service will be deemed to have been served this would prove to be difficult, if not impossible, to include in a computer generated notice. It is, however, considered to be necessary to provide an indication to the Owner as to when the period in which representations may be made will begin. This follows from the logic of the Barnet decision."

this thread back on track now I hope.

Last edited by lamma; 25th August 2008 at 14:24.
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Old 25th August 2008, 14:25   #25 (permalink)
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Default Re: Tickets without 2 dates

Quote:
Originally Posted by lamma View Post
yeah right..
"previous revoked piece of legislation"
"The TMA revokes the RTA in England and Wales"

just just can't mislead people to that extent and expect not to brought to book on it.

glad that you agree that two dates are mandatory under both sets of regs - which is what the OP's post is about. Anyone with a single date PCN (unbder either regs ) should fight it - end of.
this thread back on track now I hope.
Sorry I correct myself the TMA 2004 repeals

Section 43.

Sections 65 to 67.

Section 68(2) and (3)(c).

Sections 69 to 74A.

Sections 76 to 79.

Schedule 3.

Schedule 6.

of the RTA 1991, which are the sections that cover PCNs and DPE in England and Wales any one who read this thread looking for information on 'dangerous cycling' and 'driving whilst under influence of drugs' etc I appologise for misleading you those are still cover by the 1991 act.
I do beleive it was you who took this off track by introducing the Barnet ruling which is now null and void as regards PCNs issued (outside Scotland). The OP actually asked if the initial 2006 post on this thread regarding 1991 statute PCNs was still relevant which it is not. If you had correctly informed them the RTA had now been updated by the TMA regarding PCNs and pointed then in the direction of the curent legislation maybe this thread would not had turned into some childish war of words.
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Old 25th August 2008, 14:27   #26 (permalink)
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Default Re: Tickets without 2 dates

"Dates and Service
The regulations require that the PCN should be dated and that this should be the date of posting. It will be essential, therefore, that the PCN is actually posted on that date and that Councils should have clear and reliable systems recording the fact and date of postage. However, the time for making representations runs from the date of service of the PCN. It is not a statutory requirement that the date of service be included on the PCN and bearing in mind the rules relating to when service will be deemed to have been served this would prove to be difficult, if not impossible, to include in a computer generated notice. It is, however, considered to be necessary to provide an indication to the Owner as to when the period in which representations may be made will begin. This follows from the logic of the Barnet decision."
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Old 25th August 2008, 14:35   #27 (permalink)
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Default Re: Tickets without 2 dates

Quote:
Originally Posted by lamma View Post
"Dates and Service
The regulations require that the PCN should be dated and that this should be the date of posting. It will be essential, therefore, that the PCN is actually posted on that date and that Councils should have clear and reliable systems recording the fact and date of postage. However, the time for making representations runs from the date of service of the PCN. It is not a statutory requirement that the date of service be included on the PCN and bearing in mind the rules relating to when service will be deemed to have been served this would prove to be difficult, if not impossible, to include in a computer generated notice. It is, however, considered to be necessary to provide an indication to the Owner as to when the period in which representations may be made will begin. This follows from the logic of the Barnet decision."

Oooooh how clever you found a bit of text that includes the word Barnet.....go to the top of the class!! We will overlook its talking about postal PCNs, states no date of notice is required and just says its based on the logic of the case not the judgement itself. The TMA was worded to remove the confusion caused by the RTA wording and this obviously took into account the judgement. It does NOT however mean that a ruling on a RTA 1991 worded PCN can be used on a TMA 2004 PCN. But keep trying to prove me wrong if it makes you happy.
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Old 25th August 2008, 14:45   #28 (permalink)
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Default Re: Tickets without 2 dates

that "bit of text" is as you very probably know is part of advice that ALL CPE councils received.
the logic of the Barnet case still applies (as nero said) and the TMA specifies multiple dates
see
The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) General Regulations 2007 (No. 3483) - Statute Law Database
I have covered reg 10 already but to save people clicking the link here is the text for both from the above schedule

Contents of a penalty charge notice served under regulation 91. A penalty charge notice served under regulation 9 must, in addition to the matters required to be included in it by regulation 3(2) of the Representations and Appeals Regulations, state— (a)
the date on which the notice is served;

(b)
the name of the enforcement authority;

(c)
the registration mark of the vehicle involved in the alleged contravention;

(d)
the date and the time at which the alleged contravention occurred;

(e)
the grounds on which the civil enforcement officer serving the notice believes that a penalty charge is payable;

(f)
the amount of the penalty charge;

(g)
that the penalty charge must be paid not later than the last day of the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which the penalty charge notice was served;

(h)
that if the penalty charge is paid not later than the last day of the period of 14 days beginning with the date on which the notice is served, the penalty charge will be reduced by the amount of any applicable discount;

(i)
the manner in which the penalty charge must be paid; and

(j)
that if the penalty charge is not paid before the end of the period of 28 days referred to in subparagraph (g), a notice to owner may be served by the enforcement authority on the owner of the vehicle.




Contents of a regulation 10 penalty charge notice
2. A regulation 10 penalty charge notice, in addition to the matters required to be included in it by regulation 3(4) of the Representations and Appeals Regulations, must state— (a)
the date of the notice, which must be the date on which it is posted;

(b)
the matters specified in paragraphs 1(b), (c), (d), (f) and (i);

(c)
the grounds on which the enforcement authority believes that a penalty charge is payable;

(d)
that the penalty charge must be paid not later than the last day of the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which the penalty charge notice is served;

(e)
that if the penalty charge is paid not later than the applicable date, the penalty charge will be reduced by the amount of any applicable discount;

(f)
that if after the last day of the period referred to in subparagraph (d)— (i)
no representations have been made in accordance with regulation 4 of the Representations and Appeals Regulations; and

(ii)
the penalty charge has not been paid,


the enforcement authority may increase the penalty charge by the amount of any applicable surcharge and take steps to enforce payment of the charge as so increased;

(g)
the amount of the increased penalty charge; and

(h)
that the penalty charge notice is being served by post for whichever of the following reasons applies— (i)
that the penalty charge notice is being served by post on the basis of a record produced by an approved device;

(ii)
that it is being so served, because a civil enforcement officer attempted to serve a penalty charge notice by affixing it to the vehicle or giving it to the person in charge of the vehicle but was prevented from doing so by some person; or

(iii)
that it is being so served because a civil enforcement officer had begun to prepare a penalty charge notice for service in accordance with regulation 9, but the vehicle was driven away from the place in which it was stationary before the civil enforcement officer had finished preparing the penalty charge notice or had served it in accordance with regulation 9.





3. In paragraph 2 for the purposes of subparagraph (e) the “applicable date” is— (a)
in the case of a penalty charge notice served by virtue of regulation 10(1)(a)(on the basis of a record produced by an approved device), the last day of the period of 21 days beginning with the date on which the notice was served;

(b)
in any other case, the last day of the period of 14 days beginning with that date.






anyone with a single date TMA PCN should fight it - end of.
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Old 25th August 2008, 17:47   #29 (permalink)
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Default Re: Tickets without 2 dates

Quote:
Originally Posted by missbling View Post
Hi is this still valid I challenged a parking ticket with this and got a reply that this was no longer the law please advise
Any chance you could post this reply up.
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Old 25th August 2008, 18:09   #30 (permalink)
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Default Re: Tickets without 2 dates

I agree, exact wording is important. but two dates still needed. have we seen the ticket ? often the councils screw them up.
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