No T bar at end of yellow line

[patdavies]

Originally Posted by jacktheskipper

Well the written confirmation came through.

What do I do now to get refunds for all the other people that have been fined on this stretch of road.

Anyone able to tell me?

Talk to your local press. If they are anti-council (and most are) then if they publish, others in the appeal process can quote your success in their appeals.

If that article can also advise others to apply for 'restitution' (not not refund), then all the better. BMWman is the expert here on restitution having been through the mill over it.

Meanwhile, until the council rectify the T-bars, you have free parking!

[68904]

This afternoon, I paid a visit to
" Last of The Summer Wine. " country, which lies in the land of Kirklees MBC.
As usual I take my parking notes , camera and a tape measure.
On walking round, I found an found an on street car parking bay, that was not to the proper design.
I then saw a chap emptying a parking place cash machine , and he was wearing a Council badge.
I made enquires as to why there was an illegally marked parking bay in the town.
He told me that there was no such parking bay within Kirklees.
The conversation went on to yellow lines which he said were not laid down to any legal requirement.
I asked him would a broken single/double yellow line invalidate a parking ticket.
His reply was we would still issue a ticket if the line was faded, or not continous along its length or not finished with a line accross it.
I quoted the required regulation to him, and he said thoses regulations were just for guidance only.
I am aware of the test case re broken lines and also the regulations regarding how they should appear on the ground.
Is he right about these line regulations are just a guide.
If they are not what is the current position on broken sngle/double yellow lines for a defence against a parking notice fine.

68904

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	Bank Charges You should have started your claim for your bank charges by now. Don't wait. You should send your bank a Subject Acess Request asking for all personal data they hold on you - not just statements. You should calculate all of your bank charges and related interest as far back as 1995. You should send your bank a demand for a refund giving them 7 days. You should commence your legal action adding 8% statutory interest. If you wait for the outcome of the test case, you may not be able to claim like this. you may not be able to claim interest. You may only be offered the difference between the charge and the OFT "fair charge". The repayment scheme will try to limit you to refinds from 2001 only. A repayment scheme will not deal with any bank charges related defaults on the credit register whereas in a court action you can ask for these to be removed and to be compensated for the damage caused to you and your family by them. You should also write to the bank and to the CRA and put all charges related credit entries in disupte and warn them that you will want them removed from the Register when the test case is over. Warn them also that you are likely to be seeking compensation for these wrongful data entries. Full and final settlement Have you previously accepted a partial repayment of your bank charges in full settlement? You will still be able to claim the rest of your money back after the Test case is decided. Get all your information back to 1995 and put in your claim now.

[tomterm8]

The regulations are legally binding, in theory small deviations could fall under de minimus, but if any prejudice is possible the ticket should be invalid.

[68904]

Just to annoy some people.
Tomorrow 28/04/08, I'm going to Berwick on Tweed on the train. I wont be paying on the train as I get free passes for 16 instnces of travel throughout the UK a year(taxable).
I shall take my camera and tape measure, and see how many illegal parking lines/signs I can find in a 30 min period when I get there.
If this offends any reader, thats hard luck as wrong doing is a crime.
Lets all have a competition to find as many illegal parking lines/signs we can find within 30 mins.
Send the pics to Local Council/newspaper/radio station/MP/councillor and anyone else in power.
When I did HSWA inspections, a manager would say that
" No one else has compained. " If we send pics to all in authority then that one excuse less to worry about.
Hansard 1984.. " The law is sacrosant and should be obeyed."
by M.Thatcher. I totally agree.

68904

[lamma]

this is a good idea - I like it.

in some areas you would need a LOT of film/memory cards to get all that spotted spotted in 30 mins.

[patdavies]

Originally Posted by 68904

I quoted the required regulation to him, and he said thoses regulations were just for guidance only.

Absolute bollox. He needs to read the opening section of the regulations, viz.

The Secretary of State for Transport, in exercise of the powers conferred by sections 64, 65 and 85(2) of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984[1] and by section 36(5) of the Road Traffic Act 1988[2] and now vested in him[3], hereby -

• (a) after consultation with representative organisations in accordance with section 134(2) of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 and section 195(2) of the Road Traffic Act 1988, makes the Regulations set out in Part I of this Instrument, and
  
  (b) gives the Directions set out in Part II.

Sorry for your council numpty, but the regulations have the force of law behind them.

[green_and_mean]

From the NPAS annual report 2006...


Signage Need Not Be Pristine

It is not the case, however, that a restriction marked by lines in a less then perfect condition may not be enforced. The Regulations, although occasionally cited by appellants, do not specify that they should be. The appellant in SI05064M sought to rely upon regulation 11(1) of The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002 which requires that road markings "…shall be of the size, colour and type shown in the diagram." The relevant diagram in Schedule 6 was 1018.1. The appeal was dismissed by the original adjudicator and the appellant applied for a review of her decision. The application was refused. The reviewing adjudicator said: "…neither the regulation nor the notes to the diagram say anything about the condition of the lines as [the appellant] is trying to suggest. There is no requirement that the lines must be in perfect condition all of the time. There is no doubt that the quality of the lines in question have deteriorated with the passage of time and repairs to the road surface. Nevertheless they remain enforceable if in spite of their imperfections it is clear that they are and remain double yellow lines".
In SX05041K the original adjudicator said: "it is not the law that yellow lines must be in perfect condition at all times. What is important is that the state and quality of the lines at any one time and place make it clear to motorists that they are in fact double yellow lines". The adjudicator dealing with the subsequent request for a review agreed and the application was refused. In DD05005E the adjudicator said "Lines need not be maintained in perfect condition. The question is whether the state and quality of the lines at any one time make it clear to motorists that double yellow lines are present". Again, the application for the adjudicator’s decision to be reviewed was refused. In CA05023G the adjudicator said "What is important is whether the state of the lines at the time in issue is of such a quality to enable a motorist, on reasonable enquiry, to ascertain the nature and existence of the restriction that the Council wishes to enforce. Such enquiry takes account of minor imperfections and fading colour".

How Good Is Good Enough?

It will be a question of fact in each case whether the condition of the lines was good enough to convey the nature of the restriction to the reasonably vigilant motorist. In HM05031L the adjudicator found that "although the double yellow lines depicted in the Council’s photographs are not in perfect condition, it is nevertheless clear that they are and remain double yellow lines." In CV05134E the adjudicator said: "So, the question is whether or not the double yellow lines in Bayley Lane on 1/12/2006 sufficed? Bayley Lane is cobbled and there are some spaces and I consider that the Council’s statement that it is "happy" with the lines is over-optimistic. However, in my view, the photographs (produced by both the Council and [the appellant]) show that the double yellow lines were sufficiently visible, on 1/12/2006, to convey to motorists the requisite information (i.e. that Bayley Lane was marked with double yellow lines)". The adjudicator in SI05064M said: "Having seen the photographs I was satisfied that though there were some breaks in the lines, none were of significance and they did not substantially interfere with the continuity of the line. Therefore I found that the lines were clear and adequate to convey the restrictions that were in force".


The Entire Length Of Line

In considering the state of the line, the adjudicator will be looking primarily at the length of road in which the vehicle was actually parked, not at the entire length of the line. It is sometimes argued that a deficiency anywhere on the line invalidates the
to the absence of the required T bar at the end. This is not the case. In DD05005E the appellant argued that the double yellow line was invalid because it extended round the corner from the main road into a private road where it should not have been and that the end of the line (in the private road) lacked a T bar. He also argued that parts of the line were in poor repair. The appeal was dismissed. Photographs taken by the parking attendant at the time clearly showed double yellow lines both at the front and rear of the appellant’s vehicle. The Chief Adjudicator said "While there may be pot-holes and occasionally patches of faded lines in the wider vicinity, the lines where the vehicle was parked are completely visible and clear. The yellow lines do continue into at the ‘private’ road, which does not appear to be subject to the TRO…. Since [the vehicle] was not parked in this road I do not consider that the status of any parking restrictions or the carriageway markings in that road to be material to this appeal". And, regarding the T bar "The absence of the T Bar would certainly be relevant if there was some doubt if [the appellant] had been parked at the end of the restriction and it was unclear as to where it began or finished. I accept that the council are obliged to mark the beginning and end of the restrictions with a T Bar, but the absence of the T Bar does not have the effect of invalidating the entire stretch of yellow lines". She concluded that the restriction was satisfactorily signed and the contravention established. The appeal was dismissed.

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[patdavies]

NPAS (and PATAS) are not courts of law and cannot overturn case law.

It is insufficient to rely on the fact that the lines are worn away; the case of Davis v Heatley also needs to be quoted. This removes any test of reasonableness from the decision.

I quote from the judgement (my bold)

traffic signs shall be of the size, colour and type prescribed by regulation, if a sign the contravention of which is an offence contrary to s.36 is not as prescribed by the regulation, no offence is committed if the sign is contravened, even if the sign is clearly recognisable to a reasonable man as a sign of that kind.

[Unhappy of Barnet]

Years apart, I have got a second identical PCN in Barnet, London. The 1st allowed, the 2nd simply not. Do I formally appeal?


My disallowed appeal:-

The above PCN was wrongly issued. The car was parked during permitted hours. Previously under identical circumstances a PCN was cancelled. I note in the 2~ years since the letter, nothing has been done to alleviate the admitted lack of clarity at that location.

Please see attached photographs. [Can't]

The parking restrictions were not properly signed. The smaller time plate is only half in the zone and is thus ambiguous and confusing.
The Controlled Parking Zone was not terminated at its boundary (I am not referring to the adjacent parking bay) with a T-bar and is thus illegal and unenforceable as it does not comply with ’Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions’.
Quote
CAMDEN –V- MINIER PATAS Case Re: 203022636A PCN: CD31536097
The Council do not dispute that there are no T-bars at the ends of this stretch of yellow line. However they respond by stating, "It is normal practice to lay T-bars at points where the waiting restrictions, as such, change or terminate at an unrestricted area.....
[As can be seen from the photographs, there is no T-bar at the point where the waiting restrictions change and thus the zone marking fails to follow normal practise.] .....The Regulations therefore permit no variation to the form of the yellow line(s) as shown in the Diagrams, and a T-bar must appear wherever the yellow line stops and starts, for whatever reason.

-----------------------------------

I approached the parking space adjacent to the large CPZ sign which clearly marked the zone as restricted from 10am - 11am Mon-Fri. There is an additional, very much smaller, right angled, plate contradicting the main plate, on the same lamppost straddling two parking zones.

The signage indicates parking is permitted at that time. The Controlled Parking Zone signage is misleading as to its intent. The main sign indicates one can park at any time except 10am-11am M-F. It transpired the Parking Attendant interpreted the multiple signage differently and that one might not park at that time.

The regulation states
If the single yellow line is within a controlled parking zone, you can assume that it operates for the same time as the zone unless separate time plates show different times. A Controlled Parking Zone (CPZ) is an area where parking is restricted by Traffic Regulation Orders (Traffic Management Orders in London), in accordance with signs placed on all vehicular entry points to the area (except in designated parking bays or where otherwise signed).

[Can't attach photos]

The confusion created by the contradictory, ambiguous, signage and overlapping parking restrictions is contrary to the regulations. I ask you to cancel the PCN.


The councils reply to the 1st in 2006

Having checked with the design team about the restriction signs at the location of the above contravention and confirmed that the signs are not clear as to what times you can park, I am satisfied that the penalty charge should be withdrawn. There should also be a T bar which breaks the 2 yellow line restrictions. I can therefore.....

----

Since then they have not clarified / changed anything EXCEPT - they are replacing / moving the lamppost and hence altered the zone (A very common occurrence in Barnet recently. I doubt they had gone through the correct procedure for altering a zone, about half a metre. Do they have to?

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[gingerbear67]

Originally Posted by patdavies

NPAS (and PATAS) are not courts of law and cannot overturn case law.

It is insufficient to rely on the fact that the lines are worn away; the case of Davis v Heatley also needs to be quoted. This removes any test of reasonableness from the decision.

I quote from the judgement (my bold)

Hi all. First post, so firstly - many thanks to all who've posted such valuable advice on this site.

I'm very interested in this thread since I've been issued 3 parking tickets outside my house. On checking the single yellow line, I found that there was no T-bar, so have informally challenged the PCNs - sending pictures of the line in question. Macclesfield council has refused to drop the PCN - quoting recent "test-cases". I read earlier the "Davis v Heatley" and "MacLeod v Hamilton" cases of law and that seems fairly clear-cut so I've just formulated a written response quoting these and detailing the relevant government schedule 6 road markings. Awaiting a response.

However I'm slightly concerned now (following further reading) that the adjudication system seems to be seperate from the standard law/courts system. If the adjudicator rejects an appeal, is there any further action which can be taken - to take it to court perhaps?

Many thanks
G

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[lamma]

LGO - waste of time
or Judicial Review

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

But before that you can ask for a decision to be reviewed for a number of reasons, the catch all being "in the interests" of justice.

Essentially this would be because you think the adjudicator has erred in law (but not fact).

[lamma]

I agree Bernie.

[dave]

Does anyone think these lines are enforceable? I parked there when it was dark and didn't see them, in the morning (well, ok, it was afternoon when I finally got out of bed) I had a ticket.

The lines do become much more visible further alone the road, yet at the end they disapear completely, one of the double lines being almost completely covered by overgrowth of grass and sand, and with no t-bar. You can just make out part of the second line to the right of my foot in the second picture.

There is also no t-bar at the end of the lines that you can see much further along the road. (click the thumbnails to enlarge).

[pt2537]

Dave, were the lines like that along the whole area where you parked?

I would suggest that looking at the quality of the lines in that pic, you would be able with comparative ease to appeal such a ticket

[dave]

They were like that for at least 4-5 car lengths. I parked there at night and assumed that the lines hadn't started yet, particulary as there was no obvious obstruction being caused by my parking there, yet where the lines appeared to start you could see why it would be a bad idea to park there (there was a fire exit and a small gate that allowed the access to the beach wardens parking spot).

In the cold light of day, you can see the (very) faint lines, they varied in 'ledgability' but you could make them out. A bit further back from where I parked the lines were in an even worse state than the photos.

[dave]

I forgot to mention, that when I did park there, every square inch of that road going forward (i.e. on the visible parts of the double yellows) had a car parked on them.

I'm sure that makes no odds, but at the time it did indicate to me that as I couldn't see any lines and could see other cars parked that it was reasonable to assume that it was legal to park there.

It feels like a trap.

[jacksheffwed]

Hiya,
I am new to this site and have read through a few threads regarding this subject. I was wondering if anybody could give me some advice.
I recieved a parking ticket today for parking on a yellow line but there was not a sign anywhere saying how long you can stop for or any restrictions.
Is this ticket enforceable?
Thanks

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