"Parking Charge" Â£70 Euro Car Parks? - Page 3

Bekstar · 1st February 2007, 18:09

Thanks Rob, I've had a trawl through a lot of posts of here and I'm hopeful that the ticket is invalid due to the fact I didn't knowingly enter into a contract on the basis that the signs are ambiguous.

Looking at the ticket - unfortunately I don't have access to a scanner - I think they have made a good attempt at getting their house in order by not using the words offence, penalty or fine.

The ticket is entitled "Parking Charge Notice" and tells me that "unauthorsised removal or interference is prohibited".

It is also bordered by blue and white sqaures that look suspciciously reminiscent of those you might find on a police issued ticket.

I only get 21 days to pay, although it doesn't tell me from when!

falcon185 · 1st February 2007, 18:52

Hi Bekstar,
it sounds like they may be in breach of the OFT guidelines, as it appears they have made an attempt to issue a document made to look like an official police document, might be worth looking into it a little more

consumerzoo · 1st February 2007, 19:27

As yo may or may not from my previous comments. I sent my Eurocarparks a letter stating I dont remember receving a ticket, what date they were talking about and who was driving on any date specified. After nearly a month they have a wrote a very short letter stating "We refer to your recent query on the above account and whilst yoru comments have benn noted your dispute has not been upheld and your account remians payable. In view of this we would now appreciate your cheque being forwarded to us by return of post" It still seems a little fuzzy after reading the various comments on the forum. Apparently the car was not parked in a bay but whoevere was driving did pay for a ticket. Do I offer them £20 as some have suggested or do I really have any sort of case ? Thanks

demon_x_slash · 2nd February 2007, 10:45

Would you pay £40 if some random guy came up to you in the street and demanded it? You don't have any details, or any idea of date, time, 'offence' - and you still consider paying? This is nothing against you, consumerzoo, but a general point that I habitually rabbit on about every now and then - it's a full moon, I'm allowed

- why oh why do people let themselves be cowed by a uniform or a letterhead? Why do they have the authority to demand this money? Because 'you' (the people) let them! 'YOU' should be demanding of THEM proof that they have the right to collect this money (which they don't)!

These guys are private enforcers, and have no weight in law. They have no real right to demand information from the DVLA (this is a hot topic atm, as DVLA has to be shown 'reasonable cause' to give out info, and most don't think that a private company issuing penalties have reasonable cause).
...Anyhoo, the implied contract for parking was with the driver of the vehicle, who is not necessarily the registered keeper - if you (the RK) weren't driving, then how could you agree for a contract to be imposed on your car by reading a sign that you weren't there to read? It's ridiculous. And you have NO OBLIGATION to tell these jerks who was driving at the time of the, hah, 'incident'. Honestly, if you let them know that you know your rights they'll go away with their tails between their legs.
Has the OP on this thread heard anything back since that last letter about three months ago? I'll have to check. Honestly, they're people in knock-off security guard hats trying to make themselves look big. Don't worry about it.

Bekstar · 2nd February 2007, 13:26

Hi Demon - all your comments noted, although I'm a little concerned in my case as I am the RK and I was driving the car when it was ticketed, and they have CCTV at the entrance and the exit of the car park....

Rob S · 2nd February 2007, 14:41

It is up to them to prove who is the driver of the car. You as the registered keeper are under no legal obligation to inform them who was driving the car.

pcnbob · 11th February 2007, 10:44

I'm currently being pursued by a very persistent debt colleciotn agency for one of these PCNs and while browsing I came acros the Office of Fair Trading's "Debt collection guidance - Final guidance on unfair business practices" at http://www.oft.gov.uk/NR/rdonlyres/5...0/0/oft664.pdf, one paragraph of which defines an unfair business practice as:

"sending demands for payment to an individual when it is uncertain that
they are the debtor in question, for example, threatening debt recovery
action to 'the occupier'..."

Is this not exactly what they are doing when trying to collect from the registered keeper of a vehicle rather than the person who actually parked the car? I can feel a letter to the OFT coming on.

PEK1 · 14th February 2007, 17:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by librarylover

We have just managed to get a Euro Car Parks "Parking Charge Notice" demanding £70 after being 20 mins over our 2 hours in a private pay and display car park.

Does anyne have experience of how best to deal with Euro Car Parks? is it best to pay the reduced £50 for quick payment, or wait and see if they will take us to court?

Any advice welcome! Thanks.

When you enter any private car park if there is clear signage displayed it is up to the driver/owner of the vehicle to clearly read the terms & conditions on the signage, as you are entering into an unwritten agreement to abide by those conditions and agree to the terms. Although you have paid you have also stayed over the time limit purchased and are therefore in breach of these conditions.
I know it's frustrating but I would pay the PCN because if it went to court you would lose and incur additional costs.
If you are the owner of the vehicle and you say that you weren't driving and don't know who was, you will still be liable as the registered keeper.
This is exactly how it use to be when the Police or Traffic Wardens operated the streets, the registered keeper would be responsible for paying the fine if they didn't declare who was driving.

The difference between Council car parks and private ones is that tickets on private car parks are a civil matter, whereas on Council sites there are a legal matter. Either way, you have entered into an agreement by parking on the site.

Sorry, but it's true!

pcnbob · 14th February 2007, 18:07

I assume this last message was from a parking company as it is complete rubbish: the registered keeper is not liable. See this thread: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk...s-charges.html for much more detail.

patdavies · 14th February 2007, 18:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by PEK1

When you enter any private car park if there is clear signage displayed it is up to the driver/owner of the vehicle to clearly read the terms & conditions on the signage, as you are entering into an unwritten agreement to abide by those conditions and agree to the terms. Although you have paid you have also stayed over the time limit purchased and are therefore in breach of these conditions.
I know it's frustrating but I would pay the PCN because if it went to court you would lose and incur additional costs.
If you are the owner of the vehicle and you say that you weren't driving and don't know who was, you will still be liable as the registered keeper.
This is exactly how it use to be when the Police or Traffic Wardens operated the streets, the registered keeper would be responsible for paying the fine if they didn't declare who was driving.

The difference between Council car parks and private ones is that tickets on private car parks are a civil matter, whereas on Council sites there are a legal matter. Either way, you have entered into an agreement by parking on the site.

Sorry, but it's true!

Sorry, but it's totally not true.

I strongly suggest that you read through the posts regarding private parking tickets and get your facts straight, before posting such nonsense.

Even if a driver did impliedly accept the contract by parking, how can the RK be a party to it? The RK is not liable, period. The RK is only liable for Council/Police parking tickets because statutue specifically provides that the RK is liable. There is no such statute (and thus liability) for private tickets.

Private parking has never operated in the same legal way as Police or Traffic Warden tickets.

You state that tickets on private car parks are a civil matter, whereas Council sites are a legal matter. Both civil and criminal law are legal matters. Council PCNs are also civil - what on earth do you think the word Decriminalised means when referring decriminalised parking enforcement. Only Police/Traffic Warden tickets (FPN) are criminal matters.

Oh, and I wouldn't pay because it will never go to Court. Euro Car Parks and their ilk never go as far as the County Court - because they would lose and this would open the floodgates.

There is a Euro Car Parking site near me. I don't bother paying any more as any ticket would be unenforceable.

Rob S · 14th February 2007, 18:14

PEK1, you advice is quite frankly rubbish! While the registred keeper is liable for a PCN issued by as local authority under the 1991 Road Traffic Act ( in relation to parking on the public highway) it doesn't apply to parking on private premises. Any alleged contract is with the driver, not the registered keeper.

falcon185 · 14th February 2007, 18:49

Rob, do you think that the P.E. in PEK1's user name stands for Parking Enforcement?

Just a mere observation!

Rob S · 14th February 2007, 18:59

Maybe PEK stands for "Parking Enforcement King"

pcnbob · 14th February 2007, 19:03

So here's the challenge: The whole issue revolves around parking companies taking people to court when they don't pay. All the companies would have to do is produce a court case which they've won, post the details over here and we'd all run off and pay up straight away. They seem reluctant to do this. I've pointed this out to the clowns chasing me at the moment, but they don't seem to want to tell me about their success stories.

falcon185 · 14th February 2007, 20:46

How inconvenient of them Bob

They probably read this site at night pulling their hair out knowing we know our rights lol

trd · 26th February 2007, 12:13

Hi all,
I have read through thread but have a couple of circumstances that I could do with some expert advice on.
I received a "Unpaid Parking Charge Notice" through the post from Euro Car Parks 24thFeb07 saying that I had failed to pay the notice within the time specified at the above car park.
on 09Dec06 I did stay at car park for longer than the free 2 hours, having shopped at the Sainsbury's where the car park is. but this letter says Contravention: OTHER and gives no details just a date and Outstanding amount: £100.00
to be paid 14 days from date of letter or they pass it on to a debt collector and add £25 pounds for each notice.

I am the registered keeper and I was driving at the time (I will have to check if they have cctv?)
My two queries are:
1. They spelt my name wrong, which I know realise is because my V5 is also spelt wrong. (also I no longer have the car as I sold it last month)
2. They never issued me with a notice on the 09Dec2006. I argued with the attendant at the barrier and he let me through saying "if they still send you a ticket it's got nothing to do with me".

Any thoughts gratefully received..

Howard0181 · 26th February 2007, 12:58

If it was me I would reply as follows

Your Ref: XXXXXX

Dear Sirs

Re: REG XXXXXXXX

I have recieved a letter from you dated XXXXXX claiming the sum of £100.00. Please advise on what basis you feel I have entered into any contract with you or the landlowner.

Yours faithfully

========================= =

I would not add anything further. If it was me I would not pay a penny. Despite the comments of one previous writer it is almost impossible for the landowner or Euro to make a case out of this.

At best this company can only claim damages from you. They cant make you pay a "penalty". Its impossible to state what these damages are as in this case Sainsbury's are unlikely to have lost any money from what happened. Sainsbury's may well not charge Euro (a rent) but let Euro operate the car park (Euro get their money from "fines").

If its free to park for two hours and you park for 2 hrs and 20 mins how can one define a loss? If it was £1 for 2 hours then they could make out a case that their loss was £1 but only if they could prove that the RK was the driver.

trd · 26th February 2007, 13:07

Howard0181, thanks for the speedy advice, I will get that in the post today and let you know all know how I get on, do I need to send it registered?

Rob S · 26th February 2007, 13:12

Trd,

I would write and state to them that as the registered keeper of the vehicle, you are under no obligation to pay for the alleged contravention. I would also state that any alleged contract is with the driver, not the registered keeper, and that as the registered keeper, you are under no legal obligation to supply them with details of the driver.

You don't have to say anything in the letter about who was driving, just stick to your guns on the issue of the registered keeper not being liable in any way.

Howard0181 · 26th February 2007, 13:15

I would not spend any money with this!!!

First Class or Second Class post is fine. Their letter would not have been sent recorded.

If you have a fax machine at work and there is a fax number on the letter then fax and post if can be bothered. Dont phone as they are likely to have a 50p a minute phone number.

Finally, you may well get hounded but there are some things that you can do if they threaten you (OFT, Police etc)

This company have only one legal remedy against you and that is to issue a County Court Summons. That outcome is very, very unlikely. You can even defend this in your local County Court if they try a sue you.

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