"Parking Charge" £70 Euro Car Parks?

[brechiner]

Originally Posted by brechiner

Just to keep you updated,

I have still not received a response from the car parking company after 6 weeks.

You can draw your own conclusion

Well the 56 days for appeals was up two weeks ago but they still refuse to write to me. I phoned them up and they even said, 'sorry but we cannot write to you!'

such a shame...

[parking problems]

Date 7th October 2006

Any one with further details please post. ENJOY THE READ

I have been searching the Inernet for information on fines issued by Euro Car Parks in private car park facilities they administer on behalf of retail stores as I was parked in one of their car parks. The car Park has a remote CCTV number plate system and I have been worried that I will receive a fine for overstaying my time by 17 minutes at the most (I know this as I timed myself when I parked and when I left the car park.

I intend to contact Euro Parks to see whether my details have been captured on CCTV as evidence.

Any how So worried that I might receive a £80 fine I looked at various peices of information on the web and found an intersting section in The Traffic Management Bill see House of Commons Standing Committee A (pt 1)
in this bill there are three key points that I would like to share with other members especially CONSUMERZOO who experienced similar problems although this ticket was placed on the car and not via post (something I might receive from todays date) .

1. (6) The regulations shall include provision that a penalty charge shall not be imposed in respect of any description of conduct in which there is a reasonable excuse having regard to the circumstances at the time.'. (it was pouring down this morning in Watford hence my delay of 17 minutes getting back to my car) will I have to get Metrological data to support a claim of reasonable conduct i.e not wanting to get soaked before driving?

2. '( The regulations shall include provision for penalty charges to be proportionate to the gravity of the contravention having regard to the duration of the contravention and its impact upon the safety and convenience of other road users.'. (Does 17 minutes or thereabouts attract an £80 charge / Did my overstay impact upon the safety and convenience of other road users at the time of my overstay?

3. The use of the criminal law by a private operator is an anomaly. A private operator of a private car park can use civil law only, and thereby pursue a civil debt. In accordance with the principles of civil penalties for road traffic contraventions in existing law and in part 6 of the Bill, the notion that such disputes should be civil disputes is right and proper. One who objects to the facts of the situation can go before a county court, with no criminal impunity possible, and argue one's case, and the issue can be resolved in the normal manner in the civil courts.

However, the anomaly with local authority car parks that are under private subcontracted operation is that the private operators are using criminal law in the same way as a local authority is empowered to do, rather than civil law. That puts pressure on the individual, because the threat of criminal action entices him to pay the sum demanded by the private operator.

Q Does this anomaly extend to Euro Car Parks as the private operator subcontracted by a private retail park group?

I am waiting for this one i.e for a charge notice to be issued if one does arrive will Euro Car Parks seek to use criminal law for a private car park that is subcontracted if so is this lawful action?

If anyone has any further caveats that could be used effectively to deal with parking fines issued by a private car park please post!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!

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[parking problems]

Consumerzoo please refer to post of 7th October. Any advice would be welcome as I intend to compose a letter to Euro Car Parks should they issue me with a parking fine.

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[consumerzoo]

Sorry about the lack of reply but for some reason I am not getting any email notifications...

I thought I had got away with the fine until I received a letter a few days ago say that unless I paid within 14 days the matter will be sent ot a debt collection agency.

I decided to send a registered letter stating that I do not recollect any fine, my car is used by various members of the family, what was the weather like on the day etc..

I have as yet not received any reply but I've sent them an email today reminding them of the fact that I have sent them a registered letter.

How di you get on..?

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[humanscar]

new to the site, but I decided to bite the bullet having had an Euro Car Parks ticket demanding £70 put under my wiper just before Christmas in Old town, Swindon. It is a Co-op car park, doesn't require the purchase of a ticket but does state max stay 100 mins... I was there at least 120-130 mins, so not really surprised to get a ticket, but very surprised to see it was demanding £70... read more detail (no mention of the word "offence" on it BTW) to discover it's only £50 if paid within 14 days... then discovered by reading absolutely everything on it that I could pay online. So I decided I'd look on the web and see just how legit it is, but having read all the above, I decided, like I'm sure thousands of others do every day, it would be less hassle and cheaper for me (i.e. stress, time v £50) to just pay it.
So, go online to pay it to discover they only wanted £30 + about £2 admin fee, so suddenly it was a whole lot more digestible, and let's face it, I knew I was over the time limit and expected a ticket, so it's only fair... except these money grabbing b*stards don't really deserve a penny.

Can anyone remember the days of completely free parking without time restraints? - Oh how I crave for those times back!

[demon_x_slash]

Well, now you've paid it to keep them off your back, you can start to claim it back if you're really worried about it...the more pay, the more they get away with it

[diskmandave]

This is my first post here! Hi everyone it's 2200 on New Years Eve. I'm a Senior Shop Steward (fully trained) for a Sunlight distribution department. What I tell all of my boys is, to park where the flipping heck they need to without actually committing a criminal offence, wether it be council controlled or private company regulated. If they are in breach of council Reg's we go for them on every single legal point, if they are on private then Sunlight is the owner and not legally responsible to provide driver details. I think a lot of people miss the fact that if you own a car that is used by multiple drivers that as far as private is concerned is that you don't even have to buy a ticket at a private car park if you've got the balls to chase them back as far as a ticket is concerned! I became S. Shop Steward 18/01/2001 and since then my strike rate on ticket appeals is still 100%. My best 2 being a) parked over 2 p&d bays without displaying ticket/s (wrong contravention code), and, b) parked in an operational bus lane (attendant ((not p/officer or t/warden)) had no right to issue for a criminal offence, and, used wrong contravention code). The moral of any story here I think, must always be, appeal appeal appeal.

Best regards, hope one and all have a great 2007! - Dave.

[diskmandave]

Whoopsi! Sorry hit send twice!
your duplicate has been deleted for you

[diskmandave]

Originally Posted by humanscar

new to the site, but I decided to bite the bullet having had an Euro Car Parks ticket demanding £70 put under my wiper just before Christmas in Old town, Swindon. It is a Co-op car park, doesn't require the purchase of a ticket but does state max stay 100 mins... I was there at least 120-130 mins, so not really surprised to get a ticket, but very surprised to see it was demanding £70... read more detail (no mention of the word "offence" on it BTW) to discover it's only £50 if paid within 14 days... then discovered by reading absolutely everything on it that I could pay online. So I decided I'd look on the web and see just how legit it is, but having read all the above, I decided, like I'm sure thousands of others do every day, it would be less hassle and cheaper for me (i.e. stress, time v £50) to just pay it.
So, go online to pay it to discover they only wanted £30 + about £2 admin fee, so suddenly it was a whole lot more digestible, and let's face it, I knew I was over the time limit and expected a ticket, so it's only fair... except these money grabbing b*stards don't really deserve a penny.

Can anyone remember the days of completely free parking without time restraints? - Oh how I crave for those times back!

If you're happy tp pay £32 for parking then U deserve all U get!

[diskmandave]

It was £70, then it was £50, but, at £32 it becomes acceptable?!
stress/harrassment/paythedamnthing!

This is how these companies trade!

[Ropey]

Originally Posted by diskmandave

What I tell all of my boys is, to park where the flipping heck they need to without actually committing a criminal offence... parked in an operational bus lane (attendant ((not p/officer or t/warden)) had no right to issue for a criminal offence, and, used wrong contravention code).

Some contradiction here Dave. Thanks for encouraging 'your lads' foul up the public transport system for decent people.

[patdavies]

Originally Posted by Ropey

Thanks for encouraging 'your lads' foul up the public transport system for decent people.

I think that you are over-reacting.

I am assuming that these are delivery vehicles - which have to park somewhere to unload. Are you suggesting that they shouldn't park against the kerb in a bus-lane, but in the normal traffic lane (in the middle of the road)and then have to cross the bus-lane on foot.

[itsamomentintime]

Originally Posted by brechiner

Any fifth letter would trigger a harassment action under the 1997 Protection from Harassment Act, which I would be entitled to claim £5,000 in damages for mental anguish.

how likely is it that such a claim would be successful?

[diskmandave]

Originally Posted by patdavies

I think that you are over-reacting.

I am assuming that these are delivery vehicles - which have to park somewhere to unload. Are you suggesting that they shouldn't park against the kerb in a bus-lane, but in the normal traffic lane (in the middle of the road)and then have to cross the bus-lane on foot.

Thank You Pat!

The next time that you visit your favourite sports store or outlet shop that has a posh floor mat at the front door.... Please remember, it is the likes of me that has to stop a delivery truck outside to swap it for laundering! Even if it's a bus lane outside the door of the shop, many councils are putting a No Stopping Notice alongside a No Waiting sign!!!!! Each cancels the other out legally! WRONG SIGNAGE! AND.... If we laundry guys refused to collect because of tickets, Mr Bus Lane protestor, your shops would not get clean mats or laundry! If we launder uniform for these shops how are we supposed to collect/deliver! Hence, my statement, unless you're committing a criminal offence.......

Hope that clears up my post!

[Ropey]

Well why didn't you say you were delivering front door mats. That puts a completely different complexion on things. The people of Britain can't be expected to use dirty welcome mats on their way into sport shops. You should apply for a Royal warrant to formalise your right to park anywhere you want and not have to walk the 40 yards from round the corner.

Please accept my humblest apologies and heartfelt thanks for the essential work you do for the community.

[diskmandave]

Originally Posted by Ropey

Well why didn't you say you were delivering front door mats. That puts a completely different complexion on things. The people of Britain can't be expected to use dirty welcome mats on their way into sport shops. You should apply for a Royal warrant to formalise your right to park anywhere you want and not have to walk the 40 yards from round the corner.

Please accept my humblest apologies and heartfelt thanks for the essential work you do for the community.

What I was trying to say was that there are some things that we have to do!!! But you obviously have a problem with that! If "us delivery drivers" adhered to the letter of the law re: delivering/parking then, a lot of your favourite shops would not get clean mats or uniform for their staff, regardless of the parking restrictions outside the shop, these CUSTOMERS have to be delivered to! What do you want us to do? Park 2 miles away and walk back??? Your attitude absolutely amazes me!

Do you shop at Blacks or Millets? 99% of their shops (same parent group) like the 2 on Mcr Deansgate are on either a No Stopping at Anytime, or, a Bus Lane! And those that aren't are on a No Loading/Unloading at anytime!

My worst customer to deliver to is Sascha's Hotel, Tibb Street, Manchester. They even have their own delivery bay! BUT, Manchester City Council has marked their delivery bay with both double yellow lines and No Loading/Unloading at Any Time notices!!! ON THE DELIVERY BAY!

The next time that you visit your local Starbucks, see how strict the parking is outside...! Who do you think launders their green aprons and their bar towels...???! These have to be laundered!

Should we say that because of Mr Ropeys comments, that we delivery drivers should adhere to the letter of the law and refuse to collect or deliver to these customers??! If we did, these bussinesses would fail within a month purely on Health and Saftey Laws.

Moderated .. personal insults removed from this post as this is against the forum rules

[livelylad]

Please behave, personal insults are not allowed. All you are doing is taking up Mods time by them having to edit silly comments. Lets just get on with the job in hand please. Ours and I am sure your time could be much better spent within this site. Thank you

[Dr Gonzo]

Originally Posted by pcr1

I don't think you should use the penalty charges argument here or in any parking case. They have a claim for trespass (in England and Wales at least). You can trespass if you:

• Park without permission
• Park for longer than you were given permission to park
• Park in an area where you weren't supposed to park (not in a bay, in a disabled bay etc.)

They can claim damages for trespass. Damages do not have to reflect any actual loss. This is how clampers work. (Technically clampers would trespass on your property by fitting the clamp; however you've agreed to this because of the signs, so they don't. If no signs then it's quits. If no signs and no clamp they can sue you for trespass.)

It's a bit of a mix between contract law and trespass as far as I can see. It'll depend on the individual case. If the penalty argument fails, they could technically then sue you for trespass.

You are far better not admitting anything.

Just say that you are not party to the contract. If they write to the RK and ask who was driving, write back and say "sorry chaps, no idea." Untouchable unless they have your face clearly on CCTV.

Hi there, a friend asked me to look up the law on a very similar problem; this is what I concluded:

The only way that the fine (in his case 85 quid) was payable, was if:

(i) He had agreed to pay it (that is, he contracted to pay 85 pounds if he stayed beyond the maximum stay). In this case the English contract law rule on penalties would apply so that the fine was unenforceable. Note that there are other arguments too- about notice, and onerous terms. I also thought that the Unfair Terms in Consumer contracts Regulation might apply, on the basis that paying 85 pounds for staying 20 minutes over limit was unfair, that the driver is a consumer and the car park company acting in the course of a business, on its standard and non-negotiable terms of business.

(ii) If that sum represented the amount that a reasonable man would be willing to pay for the right to use the car park. That in my view is the measure of damages for trespass, the key question is if it whether any fine exceeds that amount. In my friend's case I advised tht 85 pounds for 20 minutes was disproportionate. I advised him to offer 20 quid to make the thing go away.

So yeah, there is the action in trespass. But the proper measure of damages, in cases where there is no damage to the land or landowner, damages are measured by the benefit to the trespasser.

I would say pay something, just not the fine. It costs money to bring small claims to court, which if you behave reasonably they cannot recover. So they'll take what they can get.

[Bekstar]

Hi there folks - hope you are all fine and dandy.

I'm new here having stumbled across the consumer action group website when I googled the evil swines that are Euro Car Parks and was amazed and indeed pleased to read some your stories.

I'm hoping some of you might be able to help me with what happened to me at the hands of Euro Car Parks and the unscrupulous management of Sainsburys....

Its free to park in my local Sainsbury's car park for the initial 2 hours, although I rarely drive there so hadn't really paid that much attention to the signs before last Saturday. Anyway having finally found a space and had a quick glance at the nearest parking sign, I nipped to a few shops, went in Sainsbury's itself and got back to my car with about 5 minutes to spare on my free 2 hours. To my horror I found a parking ticket, requesting the sum of...wait for it....£120 (a mere £80 if I paid in 14 days) for "no ticket displayed".

I then reread the nearest sign to my car which was worded "Have you displayed a ticket and paid if parking for more than 2 hours". My boyfriend spoke to both the parking attendant and ultimately the store manager and explained that the sign was extremely unclear and that we hadn't paid for a ticket as we had had no intention of being longer than the 2 hour free period. They were not willing to conceed and he was simply directed to other signage within the car park which admittedly did make it clear that you required a ticket even if you were parking for less than 2 hours.

For what its worth they do have CCTV at the entrance and exit points of the car park.

I was planning to appeal on the basis of the ambiguous signage and the fact that I hadn't actually gained any benefit in addition to what they were offering for free anyway i.e. 2 hours parking. Should I write and appeal or wait for them to come to me....that is of course if you guys think I have a case??!

Greatful for any advice!!!

Bekstar x

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[Rob S]

Yes, you do have a case. Its a private car park and is governed by contract law. Read through the rest of this thread and others to enhance your knowledge and understanding of how these companies are really extracting the urine with their policies.

I would sit back and wait for them to write to the registered keeper of the vehicle ( I presume that is you). It would also be worth scanning the ticket they gave you and posting it on here to see how official they have tried to make it look.