Harrow Council.... Stubborn or what?

[Enfieldian]

Hi all,

Long story short...

I have recently been using a parking bay near Rayners Lane to park in for work.

It has no sign nearby to indicate whether it is intended to be "Pay and Display" or "Resident Permits Only". The fact that there is no P&D machine anywhere nearwould lead me to think that it SHOULD be Residents Permits only.

The point of this post is that I have been parking there for nearly a month without any problems, none of the other cars seem to be displaying permits either. I believe that the council have either not bothered to replace the lamppost mounted "rules" or there was never one there in the first place.

Oddly enough I got two PCNs on consecutive days, feeling confident that I would get these cancelled.

I wrote to Harrow Council pointing out that there is no "time plate" or indication of any parking restrictions displayed at this location and even took a photo of the bay in wide angle to show that nothing was in place.

Surprisingly I have received a letter from them today saying that my appeal has been rejected and that I should pay up or go to PATAS. This is on the grounds that the bay is correctly signed in accordance with the 2002 regulations.

I took a wander down the road at lunch time and there is still no plate of any kind.

I cannot understand how they can claim that this bay is correctly signed when there is absolutely nothing to indicate any restrictions save for the white outline on the road itself.

I am adamant that I should not have to pay these two fines as I am not psychic when it comes to knowing where I can and cannot park!

Any thoughts please?

[Rob S]

It is not uncommon for local authorities to reject informal representations about PCN's. They expect that most will cave in and pay up, regardless of the rights or wrongs of the situation. I received a PCN some years ago for parking in a residents bay, but the bay was not sign posted. I appealed and Camden said that the parking attendant had noted that the sign was present (he had lied) so they had no reason to doubt it. I was able to prove that the bay was not correctly signed and before it got to PATAS Camden cancelled the PCN.

Are you at the stage where you have received a Notice to Owner and now had a Notice of Rejection?

[green_and_mean]

What was the PCN for, parking in a residents bay? Post the photos it may be more helpful.

[Enfieldian]

Thanks for the responses,

I have not recieved a NTO but I am not the registered keeper. The car is leased.

Although I wrote to the council in the first place it appears that they have sent the original copy of the response to the leasing company and CC'd me in.

They state in their letter that it is "issued as a formal Notice of Rejection" of my representations.

I get the feeling that this may be a case where they have assumed that there is some form of sign or the warden has lied on the ticket.

It seems so cut and dried to me, i.e "No parking restrictions = No enforceable ticket" that I would rather get this sorted directly with the council.

I will try and upload the photo later however it is of the backdrop to the bay more than anything else , to show that there is nothing attched to the lamppost....

[Rob S]

If they have now issued a "formal notice of rejection" it may be worthwhile to scan this and post it up to see the form it takes.

[Enfieldian]

[url="http://img2.freeimagehosting.net/image.php?ba41c4ac74.jpg"]

Not sure if this link will work and it will require major zooming in as the bay is quite a long one.

There is only one lamppost along te whole length.

It ends just before the "No Entry" signs that can be sign in the right of the picture.

The white blob on the lamp post is not a plate ist is just a part of the post painted in a differnt colour.....

[green_and_mean]

[Enfieldian]

Thanks for posting that... I was getting a bit frustrated.

So, what is there to show that this is a residents' only parking bay?

Logic and experience would say that a time plate (as the council claim that the resident only parking is between 10 & 11am) would normally be fixed to a lampost or similar.

I am thinking of sending a copy of the picture back to the council and asking them to show where the "correct signage" is located....

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

You need to tell the leasing company not to pay.
The LA have prejudiced the whole thing by issuing a "Notice of Rejection" before they have issued a "Notice to Owner".
This seems a pretty clear case of inadequate signs and a flawed enforcement process.

I would send the following to the LA

I refer to your letter dated dd/mm/yyyy headed Notice of Rejection. It is premature of you to issue such a document as you have yet to issue a Notice to Owner. You have therefore unlawfully prejudiced the enforcement process.
Further, please find enclosed a photograph of the parking bay in question. I would appreciate it if you could annotate it and return it to me indicating where the sign, required by law is.
Please note that while I am not the Registered Keeper, I assert that I am the Owner and as such I am the one with liability for any lawfully issued and lawfully enforced PCNs.
Finally, as things stand, should this appeal continue to PATAS I shall make an application for costs by virtue of a vexatious and/or wholy unreasonable defence.

[Enfieldian]

Received another letter todya from Harrow, sdvising me to ignore the previous letter, stating that the bay was not correctly signed and informing me that both tickets had been cancelled.

Whoopee!

Thanks for your help Bernie, I had drafted a reply including your comments last night, but I don't need to send it now.