possible misleading Notice to Owner

[Ting]

Are you very far from the area?
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[68904]

If you live near to the scene of the parking, take some photos of the parking bay lines, at both ends, what is written on the road by the bay, and signs on posts along the length of of the bay/s.
Also measure the width of that bay and then post it all back for inspection.
You may find that the ends markings of the bay are defective, which may invalidate the ticket for being non compliant with the regs..................... .....

[bribri]

here are links to photos of either end of bay abutting DYL. Also photo of sign for bay - note Permit bay not residents bay. The bay is two car lengths.

The bay lines are about 6 cm/2.5 inches thick. The bay depth is the width of a car - approx 180cm or 72inches.

left side bay http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/l...eftsidebay.jpg

right side bay
http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/l...ghtsidebay.jpg

permit sign
http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/l...permitsign.jpg

[bribri]

I found some reference to line widths. namely that they should be 60mm or 75 or 100 so if mine are 60mm are they illegal or is there a degree of tolerance?

or is there anything in the PCN itself to tackle the council on.

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[patdavies]

Originally Posted by bribri

I found some reference to line widths. namely that they should be 60mm or 75 or 100 so if mine are 60mm are they illegal or is there a degree of tolerance?

The bay lines are about 6 cm/2.5 inches thick

AFAIK, 60mm is 6cm

The line thickness is perfectly legal

[crem]

Originally Posted by patdavies

AFAIK, 60mm is 6cm

I would agree with that calculation unless they have changed it since I went to school.

[bribri]

ok.

I did mean to say that I thought the standards were 50mm and my lines were measuring 60mm but unless there is any disagreement and case history, i would allow tolerance for paint on the road.

the Permit sign is about 21cm high if that helps.

The parking machine for the pay and display bays says free parking for blue badges obviously I was in the residents/business permits area not shared use.

I just wonder if because the rules change from borough to borough in London whether the signing should be clearer in some way. Perhaps at the entrance to the CPZ. (I haven't measured those signs). I think it is a bit tough to rely on people knowing the map of zones.

It would be more straightforward if someone found an error on th ePCN or have Hackney learnt what to do?

[Ting]

Sorry mate but i just don't understand your approach to this.

1/. i note that you already seem to know the error on the PCN and someone confirmed it.

2/. Your pics don't really show the bay for anyone to tell if it is compliant.

3/. You haven't shown the signs (or did I miss that), just measured them?

4/. When driving you don't need the CPZ map. Yes varying BB restrictions are a nuisance but you pass the zone entry sign and you pass the zone ends sign. Don't see your point.

5/. CPZ maps are only needed for your current investigations - to check the entry signs are present. Again it seems someone has told you this and given a source for the maps.

Just a tip cos I like to see all appeals succeed but if you ask for advice - follow it up.

Good luck.

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[Ting]

Ah, I have to correct myself.

You have shown the sign. Not the greatest on signs but i think that's non-prescribed.

I'll post a link to the correct diagram later.

Proximity of the other sign - the one where you could park - would be relevant from a common sense perspective and the potential to mislead.
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[Ting]

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roads/tss/...nlyandvari4394

[bribri]

I think Ting, you have corrected yourself but just in case of confusion, here are my responses.

Originally Posted by Ting

1/. i note that you already seem to know the error on the PCN and someone confirmed it. I'm not sure what you are referring to. The only error I am aware of may be the missing wording of enforcement authority will serve... But I have not seen case confirmation

2/. Your pics don't really show the bay for anyone to tell if it is compliant. I think they do. It is a two car bay with no dividing line in the middle and I have shown either end with DYL and T-bar abutting white bay line. IS single white line correct?


4/. When driving you don't need the CPZ map. Yes varying BB restrictions are a nuisance but you pass the zone entry sign and you pass the zone ends sign. Don't see your point. BB variations are not noted on CPZ entry signs. You have to just know them or keep a copy of the BB london book in the car. But not always possible.


Good luck.

However what I hope is that this is the clincher . The bay sign diags in your later post show that the times of use are below the Permit Bay wording - in my photo they are above that wording and the zone identifier is in a different position to my photo.
What do you think to that?

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[Ting]

1/. I know of no case but what i meant was that you spotted the error yourself and it was confirmed to you by someone that it was technically and legally incorrect. Worth inclusion but tenuous on it's own. what i failed to understand is why you were asking again.

2/. Nope, sorry your pics are not sufficient for me to make a comment on compliance. From your written description - sounds legit.

4/. Would have to agree with G&M on this. If you are unsure of the restrictions - you stick to the basic ones - any permit area - not allowed.
However, it is worth including as a plea for discretion - 'it was honest mistake guv'

On the sign - well yeah that's what i meant. That is my interpretation of the situation. See the note that refers to the P sign and zone identifier tile. I'm assuming the diagram is valid as I pulled it off the DfT site today!

Some people think this is pedantic but there is case law to back it up - Davis vs Heatley 1971.
On the order, for instance, you don't start a letter 'Yours Faithfully' and end it with Dear Sir/Madam.

Now your next problem - rather more important. you seem to think your deadline for informal challenge is tomorrow.
Appeal for that circumstance must reach Hackney TODAY
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[bribri]

I have just been counting the days myself.

[Ting]

- and? - conclusion?

[bribri]

the conclusion is that i sent my appeal via their website at 4 pm today.

will update when i hear anything.

[Ting]

Don't trust Councils with e-mails!!!

a) If you haven't had an automated acknowledgement OR

b) If you haven't done this already >> repeat it and bcc or cc it to yourself.
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[bribri]

deleted post

[bribri]

I have made a right mess of creating a new thread and so mangled a range of old ones - sorry.

[green_and_mean]

The PCN is for parking in a residents or shared use bay not a PD bay which is at a lower rate of penalty.

	Fight a Motoring Ticket kit Follow this link to read the review of the "Fight a motoring ticket" kit by Lawpack. Everything you need to challenge your motoring ticket. Most motoring tickets go unchallenged. Most which are challenged are challenged successfully.