Incorrect Tax Info on PCN - can I appeal?

lockma · 19th April 2008, 17:35

Hi All,

I received my first ever PCN today after 17 years of driving

.

The PCN i received has most of the details correct - what is incorrect is the tax disc info that for some reason has been keyed in. The serial no is correct but the expiry on the ticket says 31/03/2007!!! Now bearing in mind my tax disc clearly states end of August 2008 do i have grounds for appeal because of incorrect information? or could i simply question the traffic wardens competency or mental aptitude for the job in hand? I mean how the heck did he come up with 31/03/2007??

Any help would be appreciated.

lockma · 19th April 2008, 19:33

Let me give a little more info...

I was given the PCN in a loading bay and i have just realised that the obsersation time and the time of the ticket being printed was identical - surely they must observe longer than 0 minutes?

I was driving my renault laguna and not a goods vehicle which the traffic warden insisted was what was required when i told him i was unloading.

tomterm8 · 19th April 2008, 20:32

What were you unloading? The unloading excemption can cover both commercial and noncommercial business. observing it for 0 minutes means that it is likely that you have some grounds for an appeal.

can you scan and post your PCN, too?

lockma · 20th April 2008, 19:44

Hi - Thanks for the reply - I will post the PCN tomorrow when i am in work.

As for the loading thing - well, lets just say he did not observe me doing anything - the first he saw of me and i of him was when i ran back to the car saying i had been unloading!

I dont know about the actual restrictions but i will try to look tomorrow as well.

I am kinda pining my hopes on the incorrect tax details and lack of difference between the observed time and ticket time being enough to persuade them to cancel the ticket.

Am i being too ambitous do you think?

tomterm8 · 20th April 2008, 19:50

I don't think those are particularly good reasons, you will need to either fall into an excemption, or etc. Given that they have 0 minutes of observation, it would be reasonable for you to say you were unloading some heavy package if that were the case. You would need some evidence of this fact.

Did the parking attendant hand you the PCN?

Esio Trot · 20th April 2008, 20:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by lockma

I was driving my renault laguna and not a goods vehicle which the traffic warden insisted was what was required when i told him i was unloading.

The official is wrong in stating that a goods vehicle is required. If you examine your tax disc, the classification should read "PLG" which is an acronym for Private/Light Goods.

Legislation does not specify that a particular vehicle is required, nor gives a clear definition of what constitutes loading or unloading.

I am aware of a case where twelve minutes elapsed and still the motorist won the loading/unloading case. The reason is pedestrianisation: the motorist had first to find the flat (in a high rise) where he was to deliver. He then returned to the van and unloaded the goods (a computer system) wheeled them down three streets to the flat, entered through the door entry system, wait for the lift, got a signature then returned to the van.

green_and_mean · 20th April 2008, 21:32

Contary to popular misconceptions the observation time is not needed or is there a limit of time allowed for loading unless in London (or signed as such). Its simply a period to 'try' and assertain what the driver is up to before leaving the vehicle alone or issuing a PCN. In theory all tickets could be issued without observation but would result in a ridiculous amount of appeals from drivers who were actually loading. Even if the observation time has elapsed if the driver can prove that loading was the reason for being parked the exemption still applies. There have been several key cases and the rules for loading and unloading are now clearly established.
'Goods vehicle' can be defined in the TRO so being taxed as a PLG is not an automatic defence.

neil24103 · 20th April 2008, 23:28

i agree could you post up pcn remove all all your details and barcodes.and post pics of signs

patdavies · 20th April 2008, 23:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by green_and_mean

'Goods vehicle' can be defined in the TRO so being taxed as a PLG is not an automatic defence.

G&M is absolutely right - the TRO can define the type of vehicle(s) for loading.

However, any such restrictions must be on signs (ie "HGV only").

The correctness or otherwise of the VED disk serial number is irrelevant

lockma · 21st April 2008, 10:35

Hi Everyone,

Thanks for the replies - its kind of interesting all of this stuff. I have spent hours reading these and other forums. I guess I am being a little optimistic but well lets see.

Here are the front and back of the PCN. Lets hope the council made a big blooper on it somewhere otherwise I will pay my fine and call the attendant a muppet next time i see him

In terms of the signage I have not had time to go back since - i will look on my way home tonight.

Thanks again everyone.

patdavies · 21st April 2008, 12:04

The offence code implies that the area where you parked does have a TRO defining the specific type of vehicle that may use it.

You need to get a copy of the TRO from the Highway Authority and also check for signage; to see if there is such a restriction in place.

green_and_mean · 21st April 2008, 12:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by patdavies

The offence code implies that the area where you parked does have a TRO defining the specific type of vehicle that may use it.

You need to get a copy of the TRO from the Highway Authority and also check for signage; to see if there is such a restriction in place.

If the signage and TRO is correct you will have to have some form of proof that you were (un)loading to make your case watertight. If it was for business any kind of work sheet or delivery note will suffice. If it was for for personal use its a bit trickier but if you have a plausible reason it should be ok. The CEO may have observed you and made notes so be honest, you will be amazed how many people that get seen coming out of McDonalds later claim to have been dropping off a donation to the local charity shop, lol!

lockma · 21st April 2008, 12:31

Hi all,

I think i will just pay and have done with it. I was kinda hoping that as the ceo mucked up filling in the tax details that the pcn would be invalid due to operator error - that and the observation time thingy.

But it seems that everyone doesn't think that matters too much and as far as me proving i was unloading - well that would mean me having to bend the truth a heck of a lot and i dont like doing that. Getting off on a technicality is fine but anything else is dishonest in my eyes.

Thanks for all of the replies.

Esio Trot · 21st April 2008, 12:39

Obviously it is your decision whether to pay or not, however you have nothing to lose by appealing.

All it will cost you is a letter, and if it does get turned down, you still retain the ability to pay the "reduced" fee.

green_and_mean · 21st April 2008, 12:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by lockma

Hi all,

I think i will just pay and have done with it. I was kinda hoping that as the ceo mucked up filling in the tax details that the pcn would be invalid due to operator error - that and the observation time thingy.

But it seems that everyone doesn't think that matters too much and as far as me proving i was unloading - well that would mean me having to bend the truth a heck of a lot and i dont like doing that. Getting off on a technicality is fine but anything else is dishonest in my eyes.

Thanks for all of the replies.

Your honesty should be commended!!

I have just checked the Luton enforcement protocol and it does state 'no observation' period for Code 23. I hope your honesty rewards you with good karma and you go another 17 years before the next ticket!!

lockma · 22nd April 2008, 10:00

Hi Everyone,

Thanks again & green_and_mean, thanks for the words, but as every normal person (i assume) i still do not wish to pay (i will do but i dont want to) but i went back last night to look at the restrictions and the sign on the loading bay says :-

Goods Vehicles
loading only
at any time
Max stay 30 mins
No return
within 1 hour

As the DVLA class my car as a Private/Light Goods Vehicle am i right in assuming that i AM allowed to stop there for unloading and as such should have been reported for a code 25 offence and not 23? And if so, I assume i have grounds to get the PCN cancelled?

The CEO told me i was in the wrong class of vehicles and it was only for commercial vans.

Your continued help is appreciated.

patdavies · 22nd April 2008, 10:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by lockma

The CEO told me i was in the wrong class of vehicles and it was only for commercial vans.

There is no separate taxation class for light commercial vans (that's what the 'light goods' bit of PLG means).

The CEO is telling porkies.

For the sign to restrict parking to 'goods vehicles' only, it would need to specify a taxation class or weight.

There is nothing in law preventing a car being used to transport goods, and therefore a car can be a goods vehicle.

However, you need to check the TRO to be on the safe side.

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