Signed Penalty Charge Notice - under new rules?

moocowuk · 12th April 2008, 16:37

Hi

Just wondering if anyone can help me? I got a ticket yesterday for parking in a bus stop. Basically I've been parking in the same place for the past three years and didn't notice that they've suddenly extended the bus stop to be the whole length of the road! There were no notices about the change or anything and the first I knew about it was when I went to leave work yesterday and noticed the ticket!

I've seen it posted before that the ticket must be signed by the parking assistant, but mine isn't??? Do they still have to be signed under the new parking rules?

I hope you can help as a £120 fine for parking on a road that I've always parked on is a bit excessive!

By the way it's a City of Westminster ticket if that's any help?

Hope to hear from you soon!

Many thanks!

green_and_mean · 12th April 2008, 20:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by moocowuk

Hi

Just wondering if anyone can help me? I got a ticket yesterday for parking in a bus stop. Basically I've been parking in the same place for the past three years and didn't notice that they've suddenly extended the bus stop to be the whole length of the road! There were no notices about the change or anything and the first I knew about it was when I went to leave work yesterday and noticed the ticket!

I've seen it posted before that the ticket must be signed by the parking assistant, but mine isn't??? Do they still have to be signed under the new parking rules?

I hope you can help as a £120 fine for parking on a road that I've always parked on is a bit excessive!

By the way it's a City of Westminster ticket if that's any help?

Hope to hear from you soon!

Many thanks!

The PCN has never had to be signed to be valid. Under the new rules its even more pointless as the PCN can be sent by post and would not be signed in that instance.

moocowuk · 12th April 2008, 20:13

Thanks very much for that!

I'm just trying to find some reason to try and get out of this, because they have just extended the bus stop and unless you look very closely it's very easy to miss.

I suppose I'll just end up having to pay the thing and never drive my car into central London again!

I don't suppose they need to give any warning about changing the parking rules or anything like that?

Once again thanks very much for your help - if you think of something, could you let me know?

Many thanks!!

green_and_mean · 12th April 2008, 20:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by moocowuk

Thanks very much for that!

I'm just trying to find some reason to try and get out of this, because they have just extended the bus stop and unless you look very closely it's very easy to miss.

I suppose I'll just end up having to pay the thing and never drive my car into central London again!

I don't suppose they need to give any warning about changing the parking rules or anything like that?

Once again thanks very much for your help - if you think of something, could you let me know?

Many thanks!!

Bus Stops do not need a traffic management order so as long as its marked correctly they can extend it as much as needed.

moocowuk · 12th April 2008, 20:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by green_and_mean

Bus Stops do not need a traffic management order so as long as its marked correctly they can extend it as much as needed.

Thanks for that green and mean.

Is there any way of finding out what marked correctly actually means? It is almost like it appeared overnight. So much so that the letters of the old SLOW marking on the road are painted over and the whole thing looks a mess.

adamna · 12th April 2008, 21:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by green_and_mean

The PCN has never had to be signed to be valid. Under the new rules its even more pointless as the PCN can be sent by post and would not be signed in that instance.

The new rules cover a different type of ticket, and don't affect other tickets. An attitude like that is part of the problem with new, undesireable tactics creeping in. Oh well, it's ok for that, so it must be ok for this....

The signature assits in identifying the person issuing it. Is there a CPE/PA (or whatever they are called these days) number?
If you wanted to contest it, you may have been disadvantaged.

Another forum suggests you say:
With regard to the above penalty charge notice, it appears that the ticket has not been signed. This does not constitute good practice and would not assist with the identification of the issuing parking attendant should further evidence be required.
It is normal practice for an attendant to sign all issued parking tickets?
I trust you will cancel this P.C.N

moocowuk · 12th April 2008, 22:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by adamna

The new rules cover a different type of ticket, and don't affect other tickets. An attitude like that is part of the problem with new, undesireable tactics creeping in. Oh well, it's ok for that, so it must be ok for this....

The signature assits in identifying the person issuing it. Is there a CPE/PA (or whatever they are called these days) number?
If you wanted to contest it, you may have been disadvantaged.

Another forum suggests you say:
With regard to the above penalty charge notice, it appears that the ticket has not been signed. This does not constitute good practice and would not assist with the identification of the issuing parking attendant should further evidence be required.
It is normal practice for an attendant to sign all issued parking tickets?
I trust you will cancel this P.C.N

Hiya Adamna

Yes, basically it says ...

was seen at location : Horseferry Road [D1]
at 21:52 on 11/04/2008

By Civil Enforcement Officer WS5374 who believed the following parking contravention had been committed and that a penalty charge is therefore payable : Code 47
Stopped on a restricted Bus stop/stand

Thanks for all your help - I'll try the signature thing as I've seen in another posting someone else had their one withdrawn in Sept last year with exactly the same thing.

robin9342 · 13th April 2008, 15:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by moocowuk

Is there any way of finding out what marked correctly actually means? It is almost like it appeared overnight. So much so that the letters of the old SLOW marking on the road are painted over and the whole thing looks a mess.

I believe they have to comply with The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002
The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002

Diagrams 1025.3, 1025.3 1025.4

moocowuk · 13th April 2008, 16:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by robin9342

I believe they have to comply with The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002
The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002

Diagrams 1025.3, 1025.3 1025.4

Thanks for that Robin, so would I be right in saying that because they never removed the SLOW marking on the road and just painted over it (it is still visible) that I may be right in saying that the markings are incorrect? And possibly using that as an excuse to get away with it?

robin9342 · 13th April 2008, 17:49

As I understand it, the road markings must comply exactly with the regulations or they are invalid. Make sure you have a photograph. It does depend what you mean by painted over. Have they just painted the bus stop directly over the old markings or did they black them out first?.

moocowuk · 13th April 2008, 17:53

They have just painted over it - no blacking out or anything.

It actually looks like a bit of a mess as the SLOW sign is half under the bus stop paint and half on the road. I'll try and take a photo of it tomorrow if that would be any help?

As I said this extended bus stop just appeared overnight and it looks like they've just thrown it down.

robin9342 · 13th April 2008, 18:03

Then it seems likely you should be appealing against the PCN on those grounds.

tomterm8 · 13th April 2008, 18:11

It's worth posting a copy of the PCN, as quite a lot of them don't seem to comply at the moment...

moocowuk · 13th April 2008, 18:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomterm8

It's worth posting a copy of the PCN, as quite a lot of them don't seem to comply at the moment...

Thanks for that Tom - I'll try and get a copy on later tonight.

green_and_mean · 13th April 2008, 19:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by adamna

The new rules cover a different type of ticket, and don't affect other tickets. An attitude like that is part of the problem with new, undesireable tactics creeping in. Oh well, it's ok for that, so it must be ok for this....

The signature assits in identifying the person issuing it. Is there a CPE/PA (or whatever they are called these days) number?
If you wanted to contest it, you may have been disadvantaged.

Another forum suggests you say:
With regard to the above penalty charge notice, it appears that the ticket has not been signed. This does not constitute good practice and would not assist with the identification of the issuing parking attendant should further evidence be required.
It is normal practice for an attendant to sign all issued parking tickets?
I trust you will cancel this P.C.N

The PCN needs the number of the CPE not a signature lack of signature does not predjudice an appeal. How would you know what the CPEs signature was anyway?

moocowuk · 13th April 2008, 19:32

So basically what you are saying is leave the whole signature thing off my appeal?

green_and_mean · 13th April 2008, 19:51

If there is a blank space marked 'signature/signed' you can put it in as the Council intended the PA to sign it. But if the Council has not expected a PA to sign its not likely to get you anywhere as long as it can be traced back to the PA/CEO by a unique ID number or his name.

CAG Products - We think that these will help you to make your claim or Reclaim your Right These sales also help us to keep helping YOU and keeps this site free of third party adverts!

Small Claims Kit	Small Claims Court Guide New Edition	CallBurner - Skype CallRecorder Review	Last Will & Testament Kit	Fight a Motoring Ticket

Alternatively you could purchase a CAG email address here, or maybe you'd prefer our address labels here
UPDATE: Consumer Forums ConsumerWiki is now LIVE - click here: ConsumerWiki N.B. Please note - due to postage costs these products are only available in the U.K.