Ticketing for parking 'outside marked bays' at work- even with a valid parking permit

[twinpig]

Hi All,

I'm new to the site & this is my first post. I've read all of the advice about private parking 'fines' , but I think this is an unusual set of circumstances.

I work at Keele University (I've read the other thread about Keele too!).

They have outsourced their civil parking enforcement to 'Liberty Services'.
As employees, we are required to display a valid permit, payment for which comes out of our salary.

Recently, cars that ARE displaying valid permits have been ticketed (£25) for parking 'outside marked bays' - this includes parking on the roadside where there are no yellow lines of any description. Although this has not happenned to me yet, it has happenned to two of my colleagues.

My query is this:

Can the employer, or Liberty services, pursue a fine/debt collection from one of it's own employees for parking at a place of work 'outside marked bays' despite having a valid parking permit?

It seems a bit of a liberty to make us pay for parking without providing sufficient spaces, and then charge us for parking illegally when there is no alternative.

I look forward to any responses with great anticipation.

Thanks

[pin1onu]

Hi, Welcome to the Forums

Originally Posted by twinpig

They have outsourced their civil parking enforcement to 'Liberty Services'.

As employees, we are required to display a valid permit, payment for which comes out of our salary.

I presume you signed an authorisation form to allow your employer to make a deduction from your wages. They are not allowed to do it arbitrarily.

Originally Posted by twinpig

My query is this:

Can the employer, or Liberty services, pursue a fine/debt collection from one of it's own employees for parking at a place of work 'outside marked bays' despite having a valid parking permit?

Did you sign any terms or conditions that set out any conditions for parking. i.e. in marked bays etc.

Originally Posted by twinpig

It seems a bit of a liberty to make us pay for parking without providing sufficient spaces, and then charge us for parking illegally when there is no alternative.

For the record - double yellow lines and even marked bays have no legal validity off the public highway. On a public highway lines and bays have to have a Traffic Regulation Order to be valid. You are not parking illegally. What you may be doing is parking in breach of a contract.

Assuming the answer to the above question about t's & c's was no then unless there is signage up they can hardly claim breach of contract.

Even if there is a contract if you have not had much influence or input into it then you may have a claim under the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts regualtions.

For the record how much is the charge for parking outside a marked bay? If it's excessive it's probably a penalty charge and illegal under existing case law.

[twinpig]

Thanks pin1onu!

It's been a long time since I started here, and I'd imagine that I probably signed something when I was first employed here. I have no problem with paying for a parking permit. It's just that previously, cars with parking permits have been allowed to park, and only those without permits have been issued with a warning notice.

The 'penalty' is £50, or £25 if paid within 14 days.

[Barnsley Boy]

Twinpig [great handle by the way, I'd love to know the derivation]

I'm quite happy from what you've written that this is just the standard private parking unenforeceable BS.

The email cannot have any relevance whatsoever to any undertaking that you may or may not have signed [a contract can only be amended by mutual agreement]. If the T&Cs mention "fines" or "penalties" then they would become unenforceable. Any breach of contract would be subject to damages, in this case related to loss. Given that you've paid for the permit it is difficult to see that the loss is anything other than zero.

The email mentions DLVA access and legal letters - standard PPC armoury. The "legal letters" from a PPC are more mickey mouse than Rumpole of the Bailey, nothing to worry about there.

The only fly in the ointment is the involvement of your Employer. If it was just the PPC you would, in the nicest possible way, tell them to Go forth and multiply. I don't see your Employer getting involved in the nitty gritty of the administration but the biggest worry is the sanction of not getting your permit renewed.

If there did happen to be collusion between PPC & University re: Permit holders names & address information without permit holders permission, this would be a serious Data Protection breach and would be actionable.

[twinpig]

Thanks Barnsley Boy

That's just what I wanted to hear! It's interesting to find websites, and this forum, that have a wealth of information. It makes me wonder why more people are unaware (or choose not to try and become aware!) of what they are dutifully paying 'fines' for!

Thanks for the responses

TwinPig

[JonCris]

Also as has been repeated many times on here & other sites they CANNOT 'fine' 'penalise' for an 'offence' as none has occured because it's a civil matter & to use those terms without legal standing invalidates them

[twinpig]

Hmm!

I just read the signs that have been put up. It seems that they are wise to the 'Penalty' & 'Fine' words. The signs say that "By parking you are contractually agreeing to pay a parking ticket to the value of £50"

Is that a binding contract?

[JonCris]

Yes but what does the actual ticket say?

[twinpig]

Hi again. Sorry, I don't know what the tickets say. My two work colleagues who got ticketed have paid up!!! (I haven't received one ...yet!)

I guess this is more of a 'what if' now. Maybe I'm just wasting time!? I just want to be fully armed if I get a ticket, as there are more cars than spaces, and so I'm sure I'll end up with one at some point.

[Mossycat]

Originally Posted by twinpig

as there are more cars than spaces, and so I'm sure I'll end up with one at some point.

If I have read this correctly you said in your first post that you have paid for the parking permit, so if your employer is selling more permits than they have spaces how do they expect you all to park in a marked bay?

Mossycat

[JonCris]

Very interesting observation mossy & could if correct have an affect on the outcome

[twinpig]

Yes, you are correct. We (collectively) asked the question to the head of security. The response was that they didn't know, or monitor how many permits were issued, but that the number of permits issued isn't an accurate 'guage' of how many people are parking as not everybody works the same hours, and some staff only work term time, and that most car parks are also pay & display for non-permit owners anyway, and so there's no point in monitoring how many permits are issued!

I guess this is where it all gets a bit political, but basically, I agree that the fact that there are more cars than spaces whould invalidate a parking ticket if they expect staff to come to work.

[JonCris]

Then they should like some employers issue 'timed' permits to coincide with the employees time at work or if the employees time varies then they can issue permits accordingly.

They should not issue permits carte blanch & if they do then you have a strong case to have it cancelled.

Although is does happen to save money there is absolutely no excuse for issuing more permits than staff attend work at any one time. It just takes a bit more time to exercise

If some who are parking are not entitled then they should be targeted

[Mossycat]

If I were you I would have a pre-printed notice (ideally laminated) that says something along the following lines

I HAVE PAID FOR A PERMIT, IT IS ON DISPLAY, I THEREFORE HAVE A RIGHT TO PARK HERE. I AM PARKED WHERE I AM PARKED BECAUSE THERE ARE NOT ENOUGH MARKED BAYS. BEFORE ISSUING ANY PARKING TICKET PLEASE CONTACT <INSERT NAME OF HEAD OF SECURITY OF WHOEVER>.

If you have to park outside a marked bay leave that on your dashboard so it is readable from the outside, if you get a ticket call security down to your car (or someone in authority) and show them the ticketed car displaying both your notice and the ticket, then take the ticket off and give it to them, tell them to deal with it because there are not enough marked bays and you have paid for the right to park there. If management or security ask why you want them to attend simply tell them a crime/offence has been committed and you want it dealing with (be vague), when they arrive you can tell them that the offence/crime is contained in the wording of the parking ticket, throw in you feel stressed or bullied as well for good measure.

When they tell you it's not their problem, tell them it became their problem when they issued too many permits, failed to keep track of number of permits and then invited a private company in to enforce parking. It sure as hell isn't your problem. Also point out that you told the parking company not to issue a ticket without talking to management (or whoever first) so you assume that they have done that and management have said it's OK to ticket your car (I know the parking company will have ignored it but it will heighten your argument against management and probably pi$$ management off that they are getting the blame).

By forcing it onto management I think you will find the private parking company get told who to target and who not to ticket.

Mossycat

PS I would suggest to your friends that have already paid that they ask management for a refund of the £25 they paid to the parking enforcement company on the basis that they have paid to park there, they have a contract, marked parking bays and yellow lines are not enforceable thereforer they can legally park anywhere on site. If enough people chase management for a refund under breach of contract then it should start making the right kind of waves