Leased Vehicle fined - Issue with the Registered Keeper

[paulrockliffe]

Hello,

I could do with a bit of advice please. A parkign fine was issued by UKPC a week or so ago. It has no basis in Law and I have no problems fighting it, however.....

The registered keeper of the vehicle is Citroen Contract Motoring. They have sent the fine info through to my company as we have the vehicle on lease from them asking us to notify them if we wish to contest the fine.

Now, the easiest way to make this go away would be for CCM to write to UKPC telling them to take it up with the driver of the vehicle, but this isn't going to happen and, given that CCM's letter to our company has made no distinction between a Parking Fine issued by the Police or a Local Council, and what is a claim for breach of contract by a third party (our driver), I wouldn't trust them to do it correctly anyway.

So, what's the best way to approach this? I've drafting a letter to CCM now that states we are contesting, and that we would like their "letter of authoristation" ASAP, but how do I go about sending UKPC packing without identifying the driver of the vehicle?

Can I say that the fine has beens ent throguh to us as we have it on hire and say they need to take the matter up with the driver at the time, or would that not work?

Cheers

Paul.

[pin1onu]

Originally Posted by paulrockliffe

Hello,

I could do with a bit of advice please. A parkign fine was issued by UKPC a week or so ago. It has no basis in Law and I have no problems fighting it, however.....

The registered keeper of the vehicle is Citroen Contract Motoring. They have sent the fine info through to my company as we have the vehicle on lease from them asking us to notify them if we wish to contest the fine.

Now, the easiest way to make this go away would be for CCM to write to UKPC telling them to take it up with the driver of the vehicle, but this isn't going to happen and, given that CCM's letter to our company has made no distinction between a Parking Fine issued by the Police or a Local Council, and what is a claim for breach of contract by a third party (our driver), I wouldn't trust them to do it correctly anyway.

So, what's the best way to approach this? I've drafting a letter to CCM now that states we are contesting, and that we would like their "letter of authoristation" ASAP, but how do I go about sending UKPC packing without identifying the driver of the vehicle?

Can I say that the fine has beens ent throguh to us as we have it on hire and say they need to take the matter up with the driver at the time, or would that not work?

Cheers

Paul.

Paul
It will help you immensely if you could get the lease company on board. Tell them that you will be contesting the fine. Advise them that this is not a PCN or FPN and that the it is actually an invoice from a Private company and not a fine at all and that you will be disputing the debt. If they need convincing get them to check a dictionary. Alternately refer them to the Private Parking Charges Sticky at the top of this fourm.

If you can get them to do the denying on your behalf then so much the better. I'd see if tthe lease company would mind sending an amended version of the letter that BB has put in post 197 in this thread. It would need a few changes but it would not need much.

If the lease company won't deny liability on your behalf then you could equally use the letter yourself.

Alternately you could use the template what to do if you wrote before finding this site.
Make sure you read the other sticky with the template letters as this has good guidance as well.

BTW some lease companies attempt to pass administration charges on for these invoices. Make sure they don't do it to you.

[paulrockliffe]

Thanks, thats pretty much what I was thinking. I would really like to just deal with it myself because I don't have any confidence in CCM to be able to do the right thing. Can I write to UKPC and state that the registered keeper has forwarded it to our company as we have the vehicle on lease, but that they need to take the mater up with the driver of the vehicle at tyhe time of the offense? I'm just not sure whether under these circumstances the company are legally liable for the actions of its drivers? The driver was at work, so acting on behalf of the company, so any contract that UKPC are relying on exist between UKPC and the the driver or the company?

I'm sure I can resolve the case easily if I admit liability as I was parked on the road leading away from their carpark, where there appear to be no parking restrictions. The ticket was issued for causing an obstruction, but I have clear evidence that there was no obstruction and there was no contract between myself and the parking company as there were no signs up anywhere near where I parked etc.

Cheers.

[pin1onu]

I'd just send the letter admitting that your company leased the vehicle but they need to take the matter up with the driver. Let them prove their case and make any claims against you. As far as I know they have to prove the company entered into the contract - legally as I understand it your company cannot be entered into a contract without the company agreeing to it. As you saw no signs how can they allege breach of contract. Keep your powder dry for the moment. You can always use your evidence later if needed.

This is what I'd send (amended from Barnsley Boy's post mentioned earlier).

Dear Sirs,

Re: Your letter dated [dd/mmmm/yyyy] Reference[#]

I acknowledge receipt of your captioned letter. It seems that you have got the registered keeper details from the DVLA and the registered keeper has passed this invoice to us. I confirm that our company leased the vehicle in question.

As this would appear to be a civil matter in respect of an alleged contract you need to take this matter up with the driver concerned. You will appreciate that for reasons of confidentiality and data protection we are not in a position to release individual driver details to members of the public or non official organisations. We are of course happy to cooperate with the police and to respond to orders of court.

In the meantime I absolutely deny your claim that the amount claimed, or any amount at all, is due to you from our company.

Yours faithfully

[paulrockliffe]

Yeah, I like your thinking. I've drafted a fairly comprehensive letter to Citroen this afternoon, that says we'll be contesting the charge. I've gone on to explain the legal situation, as much so that they're in a better position to deal with such letters in the future, but also so they understand where I'm coming from when I explain that the contract exists between the driver and UK PC LTD and as such is not concern of theirs. I've told them they're under no legal obligation to do anything with their corespondence, but to forward it to us and I've told them explicitly that they have no obligation or authority to pay any demands for money in respect of the matter and that if they do the payment won't be recoverable from us as they've suggested. I've explained why the case is not the same as if the fine had been issued by the police or a local council and hopefully that'll stop them messing up and paying the fine.

There's absolutely no way I'll be paying anything over this, but as I have to keep things as simple as possible as I don't want to cause any hassle for my employers, either with UK PC LTD or Citroen.

Thansk for your reply, I'll try and post my letter up for you to read tomorrow when I'm at work.

[paulrockliffe]

This is the draft of my letter to CCM:

[quote=paulrockliffe;13974 22]

I am writing regarding your letter dated the xxst of February 2008. I am giving you notice that I intend to contest the Notice and request that you issue your “letter of authorisation” as soon as possible.

The Parking Charge Notice that you have received has no basis in Law; it has been issued by a private company and not on behalf of either the Police or the Local Council. As such, it relies on there being a material breach of a contract between the driver of the vehicle and UK Parking Control LTD. There is no such contract, therefore there is no breach of contract and their Parking Charge Notice is not recoverable.

I need to stress that in this case and in any other case where a private company is claiming fines in respect of alleged parking offences, it is a Civil matter between that company and the driver of the vehicle at the time of the alleged offence. Regardless of the information that is sent with the alleged offence, and I note that in UK Parking Control LTD’s letter that they claim, “As the registered owner/keeper of the vehicle at the time of the above contravention you are responsible for the payment of the Parking Charge Notice”, there is no contract between the registered keeper and the private company in question. As such, you are under no legal obligation to do anything as a result of their letters and I would advise that a simple reply telling them to take the matter up with the driver of the vehicle would be the most appropriate response.

Your letter states that in the event that a Charge Certificate is issued on yourselves you will pay this immediately and we will be liable for the associated costs. A Charge Certificate can only be issued where a Parking Offence has been penalised by either the Police or a Local Council. In this case this has not occurred and, as such, if you receive any communication from UK Parking Control LTD purporting to be a Charge Certificate you should ignore it or forward it to ourselves immediately. The alleged contract exists solely between the driver of the vehicle at the time of the alleged offence and UK Parking Control LTD and, as such, you have no obligation or authority to pay any demands for money from UK Parking Control LTD. As I’m sure you’ll appreciate, this being the case, xxxx would be under no obligation to reimburse you should you choose to pay any demands from UK Parking Control LTD. If you incur administration costs as a result of communications from UK Parking Control LTD you should seek to recover them from UK Parking Control LTD directly.

Your letter also refers to the communication from UK Parking Control LTD as a “Penalty Notice”. I need to draw your attention to the fact that this is not a Penalty Charge Notice as would be issued under the Road Traffic Act 1991 and that it should not be treated as such. The term that UK Parking Control LTD have used is “Parking Charge Notice”, this is only a term that UK Parking Control LTD choose to use, it is not recognised by Law.

If you have any questions regarding any of the above, please do not hesitate to get in touch with me. In the mean time, I look forward to receiving your letter of authorisation.

Yours Sincerely

[quote]

[pin1onu]

Does look OK. Might be best to remove the identifying bits from the text when you post to the board. Be aware that some PPCs (trolls and otherwise) prowl these boards hence the reason we suggest that you remove any distinguishing details.

I would draw the attention of CCM to the fact that this an invoice.

Your letter also refers to the communication from UK Parking Control LTD as a “Penalty Notice”. I need to draw your attention to the fact that this is not a Penalty Charge Notice as would be issued under the Road Traffic Act 1991 and that it should not be treated as such. The term that UK Parking Control LTD have used is “Parking Charge Notice”, this is only a term that UK Parking Control LTD choose to use, it is not recognised by Law and is, in fact, an invoice.

Other than that it looks good.

[pin1onu]

Originally Posted by pin1onu

this is only a term that UK Parking Control LTD choose to use, it is not recognised by Law and is, in fact, an invoice.

Had a thought about that last bit and thought this would really clarify it.

"...and it is, in fact, an unsolicited invoice."

[paulrockliffe]

Hello,

Have spoken to the boss about this issue and she want s me to include the reasons why I think there's no contract in my response. I don't really want to do that as I'd rater give them as little as possible, but I'd appreciate your comments on the following:

Having reviewed the evidence that you included with your Charge Certificate, our own body of evidence, and having visited the site of the alleged offence we must draw to your attention a number of reasons why this alleged offence has no grounds:

• The alleged offence occurred on the road leading away from Ashton Moss Leisure Park. There is no evidence that this road is private land and, as such, it is reasonable to assume that the Laws of the Public Highway apply. There is no evidence of any parking restrictions, be it signed or indicated with road markings, so it is reasonable to expect that no parking restrictions apply in the vicinity of the alleged offence.

• The onus lies firmly with UK Parking Control LTD to ensure that the status of the roads leading to and from Ashton Moss Leisure Park, with regard to parking, are clearly communicated if they wish to pursue offences of the nature alleged in this case.

• The alleged offence is listed on your Notification of Unauthorised Parking as “Vehicle causing obstruction”. It is clear that no offence of this nature has occurred in this case; the road leading to and from Ashton Moss Leisure Park is a single carriageway with each carriageway separated by a dividing strip of land and each carriageway is wide enough to accommodate three vehicles side-by-side. Our company has clear evidence that no obstruction of the carriageway occurred in this case.

• We are assuming that you are basing your claim on the contract that is displayed on the car park at Ashton Moss Leisure Park. If this is not the case, then we request that you provide us with the legal argument that you are relying on in this instance. It is clear from our visit to the site of the alleged offence that the signage in place at Ashton Moss Leisure Park does not cover the area of the alleged offence. While there are signs that cover the car parking area at Ashton Moss Leisure Park, there are no signs that cover the road leading to and from the Leisure Park and as such, no contract could exist between the driver of the vehicle in question and UK Parking Control LTD.

• In the absence of any signs at the scene of the alleged offence that indicate the nature of any parking controls in place at Ashton Moss Leisure Park, it is entirely plausible for the vehicle in question to have arrived at the site of the alleged offence without encountering any opportunity to enter into a contract with UK Parking Control LTD.

For there to be any case to answer, UK Parking Control LTD would need to prove that a contract existed between the driver of the vehicle in question and UK Parking Control LTD and that there was subsequently a breach of this alleged contract. It is clear that no evidence exists to substantiate either of these claims.

If you've any relevant law etc to add to any of my points, or just comments or better ways of writting stuff, shout up!

Thanks

[pin1onu]

You used the word offense several times. You've committed no offense - they are alleging breach of contract.

BTW I'd just stick to the fact that no contract exists between your company and the PPC - only between the driver who you will not be naming and the PPC.

However your reasoning looks sound to me.

[paulrockliffe]

Thanks, have changed that. That probably slipped in as they are alleging an offence when they mean to allege a breach of contract.

I agree with you completely, I don't really want to include the extra bit, but as I'm writing on behalf of the company, I've got to do what I'm told. I've writen it so that it doesn't harm our case I don't think and I suppose it demonstrates a clear willingness to enter into a sincere dialog with them, which would be better if it ended up in court.

Thanks.