Drove away before ticket was served

[RogerHarris]

Nipped into a shop for a minute, and came back out to see a council warden, hovering over my car. I was in a hurry anyway, and just said ok..i'm off..No ticket was served, she wasnt attempting to put one on the car, or even engage me, such as looking at me, or saying hold on.

GOt a letter now saying i havent paid the ticket i never got, and so the fee charge is double.

Am i under a legal obligation to presume that a parking warden, hovering around my car is giving me a ticket ?

Do i have to hang about for five minutes, while they sort themselves out and serve it ?

Is the onus is on me to engage them in conversation or eye contact to determine if they are going to serve me or not ?

[patdavies]

If by Council warden, you mean Parking Attendant, then the PCN must be affixed to the vehicle or given to the driver.

If you drove off, then this is known as a driveaway and the PCN is void.

The problem is that the PA will have logged that the ticket was properly issued and therefore the Council will not budge. You will have to convince the Adjudicator that the PCN was not issued.

I presume that your 'letter' is, in fact, a Notice to Owner. You need to respond to this by appealing.

Scan, wash personal detail and post the NtO here so that we can ascertain if other mistakes have been made.

[RogerHarris]

[quote=patdavies;1317551]If by Council warden, you mean Parking Attendant, then the PCN must be affixed to the vehicle or given to the driver.

If you drove off, then this is known as a driveaway and the PCN is void.




Scan, wash personal detail and post the NtO here so that we can ascertain if other mistakes have been made.


Front of notice

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l3...r/frontPCN.jpg

Back of notice

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l3...r/back-PCN.jpg

I'm not sure whether to tell them i drove away having no engagement with the PCN or write a letter, saying that i have never recieved any parking ticket.

[RogerHarris]

i guess the ruling you are referring to is this

'Effectively I am asked to rewrite the Code and to issue guidance to adjudicators in the future that their way of interpreting section 5(1) must change. I have considered this carefully. Parking regulations and their enforcement affect a vast number of the citizens of London, and of course, picking up what I was informed of earlier, most of the rest of the country as well. All currently understand that if you drive away before a ticket is actually put on the windscreen, through the window of your car or into your hands, and you have not inflicted violence or the threat of violence on the attendant, effectively you have, in spite of contravening the parking regulations, got away with it. That understanding seems to me to be so well-established that now is not the time for the court to make a declaration which reverses it: in particular, as I made plain when I went through the chronology, bearing in mind that a week after leave was given to bring these judicial review proceedings, the claimant seems to have been supporting the exact opposite stance to the one currently claimed. Had the matter been litigated soon after the passage of the Act it may be that there would have been a different result.'

"rest of the country" this applies to england only ?

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

Originally Posted by RogerHarris

I'm not sure whether to tell them i drove away having no engagement with the PCN or write a letter, saying that i have never recieved any parking ticket.

Your evidence is that you saw the PA paying attention to your vehicle and that you drove away before the ticket was served having told the PA that you were going. That is valuable evidence, use it. It is pretty much common practice for PAs to take a photo of the PCN fixed to the car, clearly they won't have one unless something unsavoury has gone on.

[jampot]

If it was a proper Traffic Warden, or someone (eg PCSO) acting with Traffic Warden powers, then driving off will not stop service - however, if nothing was received through the post until the NTO (which I assume is what you got) then it does indeed sound like a PA.

Lack of photographic evidence will be useful but not entirely conclusive, as they could easily state that you came back during the service, and that they handed you the ticket instead - and if that's what their notes say, and the adjudicator believes them over you, then you are stuffed.

I would be looking for other ways to appeal (technicalities, if you like). You've already posted the NTO (which is good) so hopefully something can be found on there...

[patdavies]

Originally Posted by jampot

If it was a proper Traffic Warden, or someone (eg PCSO) acting with Traffic Warden powers, then driving off will not stop service - however, if nothing was received through the post until the NTO (which I assume is what you got) then it does indeed sound like a PA.

Sorry, no.

Only PA's can issue PCNs which lead to an NtO when unpaid.

Police/PCSO/Traffic Warden cam only issue FPNs, which are followed up through Magistrates' Court. These can be posted, and are aimed at the driver, not the owner.

[jampot]

Originally Posted by patdavies

Sorry, no.

Only PA's can issue PCNs which lead to an NtO when unpaid.

Police/PCSO/Traffic Warden cam only issue FPNs, which are followed up through Magistrates' Court. These can be posted, and are aimed at the driver, not the owner.

Apologies - but, in this case, PCN/FPN makes no difference - as it must be a PCN which was served. I just wanted to make the point that certain 'Issuing Authorities' aren't prevented from serving their 'tickets' by driving off. Sorry for the confusion - I do agree that Police/TW etc issue FPN - and I can see that it looks like I suggested that a TW could serve a PCN.

I did follow up by saying:

if nothing was received through the post until the NTO (which I assume is what you got) then it does indeed sound like a PA.

By which I meant, if you received an NTO, that means you must have been served (or claimed to have been served) a PCN not an FPN, because I do know that an FPN isn't followed by an NTO...

[patdavies]

Sorry Jampot, perhaps I wasn't clear.

A non-CCTV PCN is voided by drive off prior to its issue. Issue means attached to the vehicle or given to the driver, (unless physically prevented by violence or threat of violence)/

An FPN can always follow in the post as the requirements for issue are not the same

[jampot]

Originally Posted by patdavies

Sorry Jampot, perhaps I wasn't clear.

A non-CCTV PCN is voided by drive off prior to its issue. Issue means attached to the vehicle or given to the driver, (unless physically prevented by violence or threat of violence)/

An FPN can always follow in the post as the requirements for issue are not the same

Yes, that's what I was saying. I didn't expressly mention FPN in my post, but indirectly alluded to the fact that he must have been issued a PCN (and not anything else) since it was followed by an NTO!

[IIIUMINATI]

What is ?

1/ PNC
2/NTO
3/PA
4/NTO
5/PCOS
6/FPN
7/TW

RATHER RUDE TO USE ABBREVIATIONS (LAZY)

[RogerHarris]

I sent this .


The parking shop
Glasgow City Council
PO Box 25068
GLASGOW
G1 1ZE

Dear sir/madam


At at the date and time, of the contravention highlighted in the NTO, I received no PCN, and have independent witnesses for this. Please check the records of your PA.

Although there is no representation category for non PCN issue in the NTO, I appeal this £60 full charge. I understand for the full rate to happen, I should first be served either a 14 day PCN or FPN at the reduced rate of £30.

Yours truly,

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

Originally Posted by IIIUMINATI

What is ?

1/ PNC
2/NTO
3/PA
4/NTO
5/PCOS
6/FPN
7/TW

RATHER RUDE TO USE ABBREVIATIONS (LAZY)

Not as rude as shouting! (Using capitals - and as for the red, heavy weight text. . . )

There are polite ways to ask and there's your way.

In the interests of assisting others who may wish to know:

1/ PNC = Police National Computer
2/ NTO = Notice to Owner
3/ PA = Parking Attendant
4/ NTO = See no 2 above
5/ PCOS = Police Community Support Officer
6/ FPN = Fixed Penalty Notice
7/ TW = Traffic Warden

And before you ask in what circumstances and under what authority they are used, having called people who use them lazy could I suggest that it may be a good idea to do your own research.

[jampot]

Originally Posted by IIIUMINATI

What is ?

1/ PNC
2/NTO
3/PA
4/NTO
5/PCOS
6/FPN
7/TW

RATHER RUDE TO USE ABBREVIATIONS (LAZY)

What are you going on about? Some of these are not only well known abbreviations, but are also used by the issuing party, so could easily be described as a 'correct' name for the document (eg PCN, NTO).

Besides, it is standard practice to refer to these things using initials. If you don't like it, go and read something else.

The OP (Original Poster, for anyone too lazy to check definitions themselves) seems quite happy with the information being given, so can I kindly suggest you take your bold red text and capital letters elsewhere, and come back when you have something to add to the discussion?

[tomtubby]

There is very clear case law on the matter of driving away BEFORE a ticket is fixed to your vehicle .

The following link is from the Daily Mail:

Avoid a parking ticket - just by driving away | the Daily Mail

[RogerHarris]

Originally Posted by tomtubby

There is very clear case law on the matter of driving away BEFORE a ticket is fixed to your vehicle .

The following link is from the Daily Mail:

Avoid a parking ticket - just by driving away | the Daily Mail

Does not apply to scotland

[green_and_mean]

The law is currently being changed to close this loophole.