Private Parking Tickets - Template Letters - Page 3

Disgruntled Brit · 2nd July 2008, 14:53

OK, that was hardly the point of my question but anyway. I was referring to the 14 day period in which you can pay the reduced fine of £40.

lamma · 2nd July 2008, 15:25

It is NOT a fine.
the reduced period for PPCs is just another way of trying to get cash off you. It has no legal basis whatsoever. just like their invoices.

Disgruntled Brit · 2nd July 2008, 16:06

OK, sorry for the semantical error.

I guess I'll just write the letters now then.

crem · 2nd July 2008, 20:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Disgruntled Brit

OK, sorry for the semantical error.

I guess I'll just write the letters now then.

The point lamma is making DB is that the mere fact that the PPCs quote a "14 day reduced charge" is to make their invoices appear to be more like a real PCN and therefore they hope more victims will simply pay up quickly.

They would far rather have a quick 40quid off you than any protracted letter exchanges with the probability that they will get nothing further down the line.

Disgruntled Brit · 3rd July 2008, 10:16

Yes, sorry - I guess I was living up to my name with that slightly sarcastic tone! Didn't mean to sound ungrateful and thanks for pointing it out. I may have been tempted to pay the "reduced charge" at one point before I read all of the good stuff on here!

Wrote the first template letter yesterday - decided to save the Data Protection stuff for another day. Will keep you updated on progress.

willfoster · 3rd July 2008, 23:49

Dear all - first post here but I thought my letter might be useful to others. Apologies for the lenght of the post.

£40 fine from CP Plus for parking in the hospital I work in - didn't have my ID on me (my ID lets me into the staff car park) so I left a note in my window with my contact details, and parked in the pay and display. I wrote to appeal before reading any of the advice on this site (and so inadvertently admitted being the driver). They sent a standard letter saying they were "unable to offer a cancellation". Initially I planned to send them 160 cheques for 25p on the basis that they will have to pay a bank charge for every cheque they pay in, but then I came across this site and decided to fight a bit harder. I sent this back in April and haven't heard since so I think they must have dropped it:

------------------------------------------------------------------
CP Plus Ltd
PO Box 14836
London
NW3 1WT

12 April 2008

Dear Ms ***

Re: Notice no. 4131523
Site: Royal Bournemouth Hospital
Parking att. no. 306

Thank you for your letter dated 25th March 2008. I am obviously disappointed that you are ‘unable’ to offer a cancellation.

Frankly I find the initial charge notice ludicrous. I initially appealed using the concept of what is common-sense: I had a valid permit, I was unable to get into the staff car park because I did not have my ID card on me, and there was no attendant on the gate. I had no change in my car. My only alternative course of action would have been to go into the hospital, borrow some money from a colleague, and then buy a ticket; during which time my operating list would have been delayed. I was in error when I left my ID behind, but in these circumstances I do not feel that it was unreasonable to leave a note in the window explaining the circumstances, and then move the car at the earliest opportunity.

It is incorrect to say that you are unable to offer a cancellation. What you mean to say, I suspect, is that you are unwilling. Similarly, I am unwilling to pay the charge.

As you have rejected what I consider to be a commonsense and reasonable appeal, I will now clarify the legal reason for refusing to pay this unreasonable charge.

(1) The charge notice refers to a contract relating to parking charges

(2) I dispute the acceptance of a contract with you as I do not recall seeing signs relating to the charges involved. I have been back and I dispute your allegation that the site is clearly signposted.

(3) Under the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations (1999), I believe the contract you believe I have entered into to be unfair as the charge you are suggesting is disproportionate to any loss that may have been incurred. Parking in the bay I used is £2 for four hours and so it is difficult to see how a charge of £40 for failing to display a ticket is proportionate.

(4) Even if I had entered into a contract with you, and then breached the terms of the contract, you would be entitled to proportionate damages, ie recompense for any losses. I do not believe that there has been any loss that should be compensated because I have already paid for parking on the site, and therefore if the barrier had an attendant on it, I would have been granted access to the staff parking area without charge. Thus I do not believe that you have a legitimate claim for damages from me.

(5) In view of the excessive nature of the sum claimed, I believe the £40 charge to be a penalty rather than damages (ie punitive), and therefore I do not believe it to be enforceable.

If you still believe the charge should be paid please confirm why you believe your loss to be £40; please also confirm that you believe me to be the driver of the car (and on what basis), and the time on site that you say has been logged.

Yours sincerely

***
-------------------------------------------------------------------

So, whilst I'm no expert, my advice would be (1) do not pay under any circumstances; (2) follow the advice in this website carefully; (3) when writing back to them make it clear that you will make them prove everything - ie don't confirm or deny anything, ask for proof that you were driving, that they have suffered a loss etc. It seems to me that it makes sense for them to reject the first appeal automatically but if you are a fighter it is not worth their while taking it on: even if they were to win a court case, the time and effort they would have to expend would almost certainly outweigh any benefit. Note that I'm not a lawyer and I should probably add a few disclaimers to my advice (ie don't hold me responsible if you use my letter or follow my advice), but from my experience, persevere and don't let them get away with it!

Good luck with any claims.

Will

Peckhamrose · 7th July 2008, 21:43

Hi all, I have been reading the forums with great interest and wish to heck I had done so before writing my letters to UKPC Ltd. I don't think I've blown it yet though, but would be interested in your viewpoints.

Here's my story in brief. I am a motorcyclist. My hubbie rode my bike (legally) to B&Q and I got sent a Charge Certificate from UKPC Ltd. We have always parked in a little triangle area out of everyone's way in that car park before (as there is no dedicated motorcycle park and if we did park in a car space, trust me on this, sometimes car owners do lift and move our bikes out the way!).

But now that little triangle area is apparently not part of the proper parking area. The Charge Certificate includes a nice photo of the back of my bike. However, that is ALL it shows. it does not show or prove the context, the wide area. So we can't tell where it is parked let alone that it is parked illegally. The wording said there had been an ALLEGED contravention but demanded money anyway.

I appealed saying there was no proof of a contravention and indeed pointing out that their certificate only related to an "alleged" contravention!

They basically wrote back saying "tough". I wrote back the 2nd time saying basically "You have failed to prove what I did wrong and not answered the other questions about this matter in my 1st letter." Both my letters were sent recorded delivery. None of theirs were. Their last letter said the same as someone else said here, that they will now pass over to a Debt Recovery Agency. But I was not the one riding the bike!

So now I am going to wait and see what happens. Quite frankly I am very scared. I have written to the Complaints department of DVLA telling them their criteria for who to sell my information to is dodgy as UKPC appear to be a bunch of amateur bullies, and I sent evidence of same.

May I make a couple of suggestions? Could the forum posts be divided according to the different agencies so we can guage overall results against each company?

Also, may I ask, if people have court cases coming up perhaps we could all go along to support one another.

Anyway, that was my first post. Thanks for all advice. I shall keep you informed of the outcome and look forward to reading the outcomes of the other folk who have written their posts too. Specially the hospital worker who gets fined for parking outside his own place of work. Absolutely shameful!

willfoster · 7th July 2008, 23:57

Seems to me very clear, Peckhamrose: you are not responsible for paying for a 'fine' someone else incurred riding your bike [regardless of who the person was]. The whole thing is absolutely disgraceful: they are contacting the wrong person about an offence that has not been committed!!

I suggest you point this out to them: something along the lines of "Thank you for sending me a photograph of my motorcycle [you might even say 'a motorcycle' if you want to neither-confirm-nor-deny it being yours]. I suggest you contact the person riding the vehicle when believe any offence to have occurred. Please refrain from contacting me again as this matter has no relevance to me."

Don't be scared - it does feel intimidating to receive threatening letters but if they really do take you to court I can't see how they could conceivably win in these circumstances. I strongly urge you to resist paying - the placing of a fine on a vehicle parked out of the way goes so far against the spirit of any sensible policing of parking that it just has to be a way to make money.

Good luck with it!

Will

lamma · 8th July 2008, 00:15

just ignore them, you are safe and they aren't getting your money.

Peckhamrose · 8th July 2008, 11:25

Is it really that simple? I wrote stating that I was not the one riding but they said I am responsible for the bike whoever rides it (which of course if it were the roads, would be true). They have also refused to answer my questions to prove it. Would they really take me to court? I have been trawling through the forums to see if any private parking company have taken people to court but can't find any references.

Nope, sorry, still very very scared. But the ball is now in their court and I have copies of my letters to prove I tried hard to get them to prove the evidence.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lamma

just ignore them, you are safe and they aren't getting your money.

lamma · 8th July 2008, 12:23

yes it is that easy.

they are lying and misrepresenting your legal position.
If I ride your bike and get caught speeding you don' t get the points do you ?
For COUNCIL parking tickets the RK is liable but these are not council tickets are they ?
These PPC scam invoices are an alleged contract matter and third parties cannot be held to a contract - where one exists - and a contract cannot impose penalties.
have you read the stickies ? if so re-read them.

Peckhamrose · 12th July 2008, 23:23

In my humble opinion and experience a photograph of the back of a motorcycle can't even prove that (a contravention took place), since the photo IS of ONLY the back of the bike and shows no wide context ie. that the bike was parked in the wrong place.
Meanwhile the threats continue, my nervousness and anxiety grows, but my resolve does, too! (And I really was not the rider.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShortlyTdwarf

Having photographic evidence of the parking offence they claim you have committed makes absolutely no difference. It does not show who the driver of the vehicle was on the date and time concerned, so it can only be used to prove that the contravention to their rules took place, not that you were the person driving at the time.

lamma · 13th July 2008, 14:23

you didn't park it, you cannot be held to any alleged contract as a third party
.
anxiety factor should be zero in line with the risk factor (which is also zero).

the anxiety should be with the PPC

Disgruntled Brit · 16th July 2008, 10:54

Just to update my case, I didn't receive a reply to my letter (in repsonse to the PCN), but have just received a letter from CCS Collect (incidentally registered at the same address as ParkingEye) asking for £90 and threatening possible legal action.

I'm about to send off the template letter relevant to the debt collectors but wonder if there is anything else I should have done or could be doing at the same time?

lamma · 16th July 2008, 14:08

write to the DVLA for a copy of the V888/2 request they made. make sure you ask for ALL the information you are entitled to. see the form on the DVLA site.

Disgruntled Brit · 16th July 2008, 14:33

Isn't it the V888/3? Not trying to correct you but I just had a quick look on the website and a V888/3 is the one to use for issuing a PCN. What can I do with the information - just prove thar they haven't supplied "reasonable cause" for disclosing my information or something?

Thanks for your help!

lamma · 16th July 2008, 16:31

No it is not. the V888/3 is the one used by outsourced companies issuing real PCNs. Actual 'penalties' - check the wording.
PPCs have to use V888/2.

lingjon · 17th July 2008, 11:56

Please help!!
I got a private parking ticket in my own building. (I rent a flat here). This is what i will write to appeal. could anyone please check and help me with some advise please.

I got a parking ticket from Aspect 14, Elmwood lane, Leeds LS2 8WH where I live. (I live in flat 244 Aspect 14.) It was Tuesday 15 of July 2008 at 9.00 am I moved the car, which I parked on the road overnight on pay and display ticket,

CAG Products - We think that these will help you to make your claim or Reclaim your Right These sales also help us to keep helping YOU and keeps this site free of third party adverts!

Small Claims Kit	Small Claims Court Guide New Edition	CallBurner - Skype CallRecorder Review	Last Will & Testament Kit	Fight a Motoring Ticket

Alternatively you could purchase a CAG email address here, or maybe you'd prefer our address labels here
UPDATE: Consumer Forums ConsumerWiki is now LIVE - click here: ConsumerWiki N.B. Please note - due to postage costs these products are only available in the U.K.