Parking Tickets

[chertseymt]

I received a parking ticket in 2002. At the time I was parked outside our house with my residents parking permit in the windscreen. This was a Sunday evening and I had taken a digital photo of my car that evening.

The next day I had tthe morning off and didn't go out to the car till about 11 am. I had a ticket on the screen which blew off as I hadn't noticed it. I then received a letter from the parking enforcement people saying I would be fined if I didn't pay up. I hadn't looked at the parking restriction sign outside the house because I had a permit but between Sunday night and Mon morning they had closed the bays for road works. At no stage had they informed us this was going to happen and they cannot provide evidence or even claim that they notified me.


I sent my letter of objection in to the council and enclosed the pictureof my car. I did not hear anything else until this summer when my ex wife said she had been gettingthese letters for me at my ancient old address. The letter was a from a debt recovery firm saying I owed £75. Since Jan 2005 we have moved due to the other (parking) house being flooded-still waiting for reinstatement and the council know this as we have had council tax waived. I emailed parking people and they sent me the evidence I had sent them in 2002 and told me I could not now appeal and they had removed my case. I asked what this meant and they said the case was removed from their files and I was still liable for £75.

Should I now take this up with a councillor or am I bound to pay the £75? Please comment.


Thanks

[seylectric]

Originally Posted by chrismc

I would say if it has the wrong address they are not able to uphold it, so it is a waste of paper, but others have more experience here on PCN's

If the actual address isn't as stated then it is indeed a waste of paper. Appeal on these grounds and post back here with the results. Send your appeal by recorded delivery.

[seylectric]

They are simply trying the easy route to fat cash, i.e. they are telling you that there are no grounds for appeal so you will pay up. Basically if the case has been removed from their records then they can't prove you owe anything!

I would write back simply informing them that as the case is closed - they have already admitted this - there is no case to answer and as such you owe them nothing.

[wandererpaul]

Originally Posted by seylectric

If the actual address isn't as stated then it is indeed a waste of paper. Appeal on these grounds and post back here with the results. Send your appeal by recorded delivery.

thanks for replies.

so do i fill in the slip where it says 'request for court hearing', then go from there?

do i state that the 'was seen in' section was incorrectly written due to address being in Brentford and NOT W7 now, or do i just wait for hearing and give statement then?

just to clarify, i WAS parked in Boston Manor Road BRENTFORD but there is no such place in W7 as this road becomes Boston Road (W7).

[seylectric]

Originally Posted by wandererpaul

thanks for replies.

so do i fill in the slip where it says 'request for court hearing', then go from there?

do i state that the 'was seen in' section was incorrectly written due to address being in Brentford and NOT W7 now, or do i just wait for hearing and give statement then?

just to clarify, i WAS parked in Boston Manor Road BRENTFORD but there is no such place in W7 as this road becomes Boston Road (W7).

NO! Don't state that the address was incorrectly written, that way you are more or less admitting the offence although not in the location they specify. YOU DID NOT PARK (illegally or otherwise) at the address shown on the ticket because it doesn't exist! Have a chat with the post office to get them to clarify this preferably in writing.

[wandererpaul]

Originally Posted by seylectric

NO! Don't state that the address was incorrectly written, that way you are more or less admitting the offence although not in the location they specify. YOU DID NOT PARK (illegally or otherwise) at the address shown on the ticket because it doesn't exist! Have a chat with the post office to get them to clarify this preferably in writing.

ok thanks.......i know B.M.Rd isn't in W7 as i lived there for 26 years! its definately Brentford.

[kyuudousha]

I thought that I waould share this one with you guys...

My wife had parked the car at a train station for a day out. When she returned she had a parking ticket. £50 this ticket demanded, to be paid in seven days time. I think when I wrote this reply I was having 'one of my moments'. Enjoy:


Debt Recovery and Prosecution Unit
ARRIVA Trains Northern Limited Northern Rail Ltd
FREEPOST NEA 3188
BRADFORD BD1 1BR

RE: PARKING PENALTY NOTICE No 7412

Dear Sir,

I wish to contest the parking ticket issued on behalf of Northern Rail Ltd for a number of reasons.

Firstly, it was my belief that the vehicle was parked without causing an obstruction. If the person who complained was not able to move his vehicle then it was down to poor driving on his part, not mine.

Secondly, the 'Ticket' is called a Penalty Parking Notice and therefore does not seem to be correctly titled as a "Penalty Charge Notice". I am unsure of this but can find NO legal information on this. I would therefore like to know under which laws you are operating.

Thirdly, it states that I "was causing an OBSTRUCTION contrary to Northern Byelaw 14(2)(i)" As I am originally from Leicestershire and not from the North I have had difficulty tracking this one down. I have some friends that have lived in the North for some time now and they are looking into it for me.

Fourthly, and in a possible answer to my second point, the ticket states that it is issued under section 129 of the Railways Act 1993. However, I have decided to look this up and found that it simply does not exist. The Railways Act 1993 jumps from 124 to 130. This means that I have been issued a ticket according to Bylaw 14 of a section of the Railways Act 1993 that does not exist. Is this allowed? And what is a Bylaw? Should this be Byelaw as stated in the reason for getting this ticket?

And fifthly, the ticket appears to have an unreasonable time to pay. The Parking Charge Notice that I have managed to locate through my research have between 14 to 28 days to pay rather than just 7. Why are you able to issue an illegal ticket with an unreasonable amount of time to pay before 'administrative' charges are levied?

Sixthly, Why are two of the three reasons for Issue under an Arriva Byelaw but this one issued to me is under a Northern Byelaw.

Lastly, the ticket is from a ticket book issued to ARRIVA Trains Northern but it has been scribbled on by somebody, who has not done a very good job of it by the way, to make it look as if it is from 'Northern Rail Ltd' or just 'Northern'. I am a bit concerned as to why Arriva tickets are being used by Northern / Northern Rail Ltd.

From the look of this ticket it appears to have been photocopied on yellow paper, perhaps the original was taken from a stolen book of tickets, and somebody is issuing them fraudulently on Arriva Trains Northern behalf. I am obviously reluctant to part with any monies until I am satisfied that this is not some scam and that I am not being conned. Especially as the tick states in BIG BOLD LETTERS that I must include this notice with my payment. That means that I lose any evidence of a fake ticket.

I have tried to get this to you before the 7 days is up but it takes a little while to do research on these sorts of things therefore I would be grateful if you could you clarify the above points for me.

To recap then, it is hand written and issued under ARRIVA or possibly Northern Byelaws, whatever they are, and whichever you decide to choose, under a section of the Railways Act that does not exist.

I have enclosed a copy of the so called Parking Penalty Notice for your attention. In my opinion it looks extremely unprofessional and looks very much like a fake. Surely this can't be a legal document? It looks like the sort of 'official' paperwork issued by a Nigerian 419 scammer to prove that they have USD25000000 in a holding company somewhere.

I feel that you should be aware that somebody is possibly issuing fake parking tickets on your behalf and on your property.

Many thanks for your co-operation on this matter.

Yours faithfully





(name witheld)

The result of this letter was to get a warning and told not to do it again, plus I didn't have to pay the £50...

- pillocks!

[kyuudousha]

This one will take a little longer... and I'm not going to give all the details for fear of repercussions*, but here goes:

Got GIVEN** a Fixed Penalty Notice for illegal parking. However, the warden that had issued it wrote it in such a hurry (because I was returning to vehicle) that he mis-printed a number of the registration and scrawled over the top of it. So much so that I couldn't understand the registration of the vehicle and I knew what it was!

I decided to ignore it.

3 months later I get a 'notice to owner' so I replied with this letter (censored to protect the not-so-innocent):

Mr David F Stevens – Chief Constable
ESSEX POLICE
Essex Police Headquarters
PO Box 2
Springfield
Chelmsford
Essex
CM2 6DA

Ref: Fixed Penalty Notice No ************

Dear Sir,

Thankyou for your letter dated 22/12/05 and I apologise for the delay in responding as we were ************************* ************************* ****************, however I am slightly confused.

Firstly, I have had to look your address up on the internet as when you wrote to me you failed to put your return address on your letter. The only addresses you did put on were for the Justice Chief Executive at the fixed penalty office or The Officer in Charge at the Central Ticket Office. So I do hope this letter has got to the right person.

Secondly, it states in your letter that I have received some sort of fixed penalty for a 'no waiting offence'. I can only guess that this is some sort of parking offence?

I was indeed at ************************* ************************* *******on the ************** dropping the wife and daughter off ******************** at about that time, however, as it was nearly three months ago and it is therefore a little bit difficult to remember the exact times of ****** to *******. In any case, I do not recall getting any sort of parking ticket. I can only presume that I was caught on some sort of camera giving evidence of this offence.

I duly dropped the wife and daughter off ***************** and went on my way. I did say goodbye to them and gave my little daughter some cuddles as I wasn't going to see her for a week. Would that possibly be classed as 'waiting'?

Thirdly, the address on the letter that you sent to me is for a ************** from ************ with no Christian name or initial. Therefore, it would appear that I have received this letter by mistake and that would explain the reason for me not remembering getting any ticket, although, to add to the confusion, I am the owner of vehicle registration ******* but live in ***********, *****************.

Obviously I don't want to be paying a fixed penalty of £30 if I have done nothing wrong. Just to help clear this matter up quickly, would it be possible to supply a copy of this alleged parking ticket or the photographic evidence to back up the 'reasonable cause for belief' that I have committed any offence?

Obviously I am a bit distressed that I have only been given two options to deal with this alleged offence which is either to pay or go to court and so would be grateful for a speedy resolution of this matter.

Many thanks for your help on this matter.

Yours faithfully





**************
Encl. Copy of Fixed Penalty Notice ***************

A couple of weeks go by and I get a reply saying that they are looking into it...

...then I get a letter saying 'Go to court or pay up'. I think I then slipped into 'one of my moments' again as I penned off letter #2:

Central Ticket Office
Police Station
High Street
Rayleigh
Essex
SS6 7QB

REF: FIXED PENALTY NOTICE NUMBER ***************

Dear Sir,

I am somewhat at a loss as to what is going on here therefore I respond to the points raised in your letter dated ********* as follows:

Firstly, I have no problem with you enforcing the fixed penalty. I would just like you to enforce it on the person concerned and stop harassing me.

Secondly, I can not refer to parts 2 or 3 of the Fixed Penalty Notice as, had you read my original letter, I stated that I have not received one. This would also explain as to why you had not received payment OR a request for a court hearing.

Thirdly, having looked into Fixed Penalty Notices I found this little snippet on the internet:

"Q. Non-endorseable Fixed Penalty Notice

A. A non-endorseable fixed penalty notice is issued in respect of minor traffic offences which do not carry penalty points. The fine is currently fixed at £30 which must be paid within 28 days. If it is not, then the fine automatically increases to £45 and if that's not paid then a summons is issued. Offences covered by this include seat belt offences, parking offences, many Construction and Use offences etc. The fine can be paid by cheque or postal order to an address written in red on the bottom of the form or can be paid over the telephone by using a credit card."

As can be seen, when an FPN is issued the person has 28 days to pay or the fine raises to £45. Why are you still chasing me for £30 more than 3 months after the issuing of this alleged FPN? Surely if you were so sure that you had the right person then I would have already had a court summons to pay the increased amount of £45?

To sum up:

·There is no evidence that it was me or my vehicle that was the recipient of this FPN
·The 'Notice to Owner' was sent for someone in *********** which is near ********* and no where near ***********, where I live.
·The 28 day limit for fixed penalty notice is at least 2 months out of date without me receiving a court summons or any other communication. This is why I believe you are still chasing me for the £30 in the hope that I will just pay it and go away.
·You draw my attention to the fact that I only have (another) 28 days from the date of the 'Notice to Owner' after having taken 8 days to respond to my letter. Have you taken this long to reply just to make the threat of paying up more dramatic by only giving me four days to just cave in?

It would appear that this whole notice has been a cock-up from start to finish and in my opinion it appears that a ticket has been issued to somebody else and due to some sort of typing or translating error you have come up with my details. Now to avoid embarrassment of a cock-up on your part you are just doggedly chasing after me!

What really irked me though was the tone of your letter. It is intimidating in the extreme with the veiled threats of "pay the fixed penalty or go to court" and "make a decision without further delay". It would appear that you are trying to bully an innocent person into paying an FPN just to clear your books!

As an aside I have also noticed that you only sent me a copy of the payment slip and not the court hearing slip. Very interesting that.

Therefore I am left with me with no alternative but to go to court. I would be interested to see what a court makes of all the irregularities with this FPN number **************

Yours faithfully







*****************

So far this is just a laugh and I'm quite prepared to pay up, after all they did get me dead to rights. But then the letter comes saying that they have accepted my choice to go to court and I will hear in due course.

I then rang the tickets office and asked for a copy of this 'alleged' parking ticket. "No problems" says the lady on the other end of the phone, "where shall I send it to?" I gives her my home address to which she replies "who are you?" so I told her. "Oh no" says she "I thought you were the police officer who had issued it, I can't give YOU a copy." This I found rather interesting...

I then get my court summons with a witness statement explaining my heinous crime.

This is where I decided that it was too comical to continue. The witness statement declared that the car was a "small hatchback" where our car is a family saloon. The witness statement had been modified by somebody else (with corrections and crossings out) and was not even signed by the witnesses witness...

I decided to ring the courts. I told them that I had asked for a copy of this ticket twice and had been ignored the first time and flatly refused the second time. I told the lady at the courts that the address was wrong on the notice to owner and that the vehicle was wrong on the un-witnessed, witness statement. I then informed her that if they insist on pursuing this that I WILL come to court but I will lose a large some of money and so I shall be claiming for damages (loss of pay, fuel etc.).

I had pointed out that they had 'reasonable cause for belief' and yet I had given a number of 'reasonable causes for doubt' and that does she REALLY want to waste the courts time and tax payers money.

The result?

Court case dropped and told to go away and I didn't have to pay the £30...

Complain people, if they can't get their own systems right why should we have to pay? I think they rather hope that people will just cave in and pay up. I bet most people do to...

* Backing instruments that haven't been paid for
** Straight into my grubby little mitt...

[Switch]

Thats superb, Thankyou.

[kyuudousha]

Really, really sorry, but I appear to have posted these as a new thread when they should have gone under Parking Tickets thread.

Could a kindly moderator shift them for me before I get Cyber-lynched? Or maybe re-name the thread title to 'Kyu takes on the world' as I have another to add regarding Black Horse Finacial services...

Yours in embarresment,

Kyu

[kyuudousha]

Originally Posted by Switch

Thats superb, Thankyou.

Believe me, the pleasure was ALL mine!!

[blueskies]

Originally Posted by kyuudousha

Thirdly, it states that I "was causing an OBSTRUCTION contrary to Northern Byelaw 14(2)(i)" As I am originally from Leicestershire and not from the North I have had difficulty tracking this one down. I have some friends that have lived in the North for some time now and they are looking into it for me.

The Bylaw in question is a railway bylaw see http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tube/company/bylaws.asp (railway bylaws are all the same regardless of company so ignore the website address)

Bylaw 14

(2) No person in charge of any motor vehicle, bicycle or other conveyance shall leave or place it on any part of the railway:
(i) in any manner or place where it may cause an
obstruction or hindrance to an Operator or any person using the railway; or

1. 1. (ii) otherwise than in accordance with any instructions issued by or on behalf of an Operator or an authorised person.

Originally Posted by kyuudousha

Fourthly, and in a possible answer to my second point, the ticket states that it is issued under section 129 of the Railways Act 1993. However, I have decided to look this up and found that it simply does not exist. The Railways Act 1993 jumps from 124 to 130. This means that I have been issued a ticket according to Bylaw 14 of a section of the Railways Act 1993 that does not exist. Is this allowed? And what is a Bylaw? Should this be Byelaw as stated in the reason for getting this ticket?

Section 129 does exist, see Railways Act 1993 (c. 43)

section 129 deals with the creation and enforcement of bylaws

Originally Posted by kyuudousha

Lastly, the ticket is from a ticket book issued to ARRIVA Trains Northern but it has been scribbled on by somebody, who has not done a very good job of it by the way, to make it look as if it is from 'Northern Rail Ltd' or just 'Northern'. I am a bit concerned as to why Arriva tickets are being used by Northern / Northern Rail Ltd.

Arriva lost the northern franchise and the franchise iis now run by Northern Trains. The staff are all the same and they are probably using up old stocks of books.

Hope this clears up a few things
Steve
(British Transport Police officer)

[kyuudousha]

Hello Steve,

With reference to the Act 129 existing, I seemed to have made an error (DOH!). This was the link that I had found when preparing the letter:

http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pdf/ra1993.pdf

Where it does indeed jump from 124 to 130. However, on closer inspection, this appears to be an addendum to the Railways Act rather than the full thing. Even though the link title would suggest otherwise.

I stand corrected...

On the whole, we don't get parking tickets, but just sometimes the manner with which they are applied are such that they can't help but provoke a reaction...

Many thanks though for your reply*

Kyu

* Just out of interest, which service do you run on so that I know to avoid it in future...

[blueskies]

I didn't mean for you not to challenge the parking ticket. You may well have a case. I was just trying to point out the facts that you had missed during your research.

For any act of parliament since 1988 go to http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts.htm . This will give you the complete act.

BTW I work in the Southeast so we are unlikely to meet.