Parking Tickets

[chrismc]

Originally Posted by seylectric

Very interesting info about the word "Penalty" because alomst every parking ticket is officially referred to as a PCN - Penalty Charge Notice - and I haven't seen one that is worded differently, as far as I know that's the correct official wording. The main issue over wording on tickets seems to be the wording surrounding the date, i.e. if it doesn't have "Date of Issue" it's wrongly worded and it also must show a Date of Contravention. Blackpool's tickets are illegal on this score because they only show a Date of Offence.

Far more legal info in the other thread referred to earlier to be honest, shame we have to similar threads going really.

Wish I knew that a couple of months ago Seylectric when I got one at Vic Hospital, never mind next time I wll be armed!!

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[seylectric]

Originally Posted by chrismc

Wish I knew that a couple of months ago Seylectric when I got one at Vic Hospital, never mind next time I wll be armed!!

chrismc, you will get more info from the "other" thread, there's a bit to go through but it's all there. Read about my fight there regarding unlawfully worded tickets (three weeks gone and no reply to my appeals, looks like they are struggling to come up with an answer and are possibly hoping I will be happy to hear no more from them and I will go away. I've got some awfully bad news for them if that's the case.

Your parking ticket may be unlawful


Sgian, the law may be different in Scotland, I wouldn't know to be fair but it's definately not the case in England and Wales - if the lines are defective in any way they are invalid. I have to say though that if that information came from the Central ticket office the chances are that they don't know themselves and are doing what they do best - fobbing the public off with inaccurate, shall we say, information in the hope that people will think they themselves are in the wrong and pay up. Most do of course. I'm not one of them.

[Sgian]

Aye, I did think that the difference between Scottish and English law could have an effect on how the legislation is interpreted. When i contacted the CTO (it was a good few years back and my memory is not photographic so I can't remember the exact details) they told me about the yellow lines and the signs on the roadside. (what I said in my first post). I, of course, asked them to either send me, or direct me to the exact legislation that stated what they said. They actually sent me the Acts of Parliament and as far as I remember, there was a whole area around yellow lines that supported what they told me. Not long after that, I sat in the public gallery at a district court here to see a man being fined for parking on yellow lines, even though the lines were worn away to almost invisibility. It seems the Sheriff interpreted the legislation the same way the Central Ticket Office do.

I'm sure if anyone is interested enough to contact the Central Ticket Office, they'll supply you with the relevent legislation..

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[JonCris]

Originally Posted by seylectric

Very interesting info about the word "Penalty" because alomst every parking ticket is officially referred to as a PCN - Penalty Charge Notice - and I haven't seen one that is worded differently, as far as I know that's the correct official wording. The main issue over wording on tickets seems to be the wording surrounding the date, i.e. if it doesn't have "Date of Issue" it's wrongly worded and it also must show a Date of Contravention. Blackpool's tickets are illegal on this score because they only show a Date of Offence.

Correct & is why I asked the poster the dates

Far more legal info in the other thread referred to earlier to be honest, shame we have to similar threads going really.

Which thread?

Correct but many councils have not stopped using the terms "penalty" or "fine" on their websites as a 1st step. Any which claim they are should & are being challenged. Some councils argue that the term "penalty" does not imply they are "fines".

As I said I will post links to some relevent sites later to day

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[seylectric]

Originally Posted by JonCris

Which thread?

The link is in the post no. 42 above

[dw190]

Davies v Heatley [1971] R.T.R 145
Because by s.64(2) of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 traffic signs shall be of the size, colour and type prescribed by regulation, if a sign the contravention of which is an offence contrary to s.36 is not as prescribed by the regulation, no offence is committed if the sign is contravened, even if the sign is clearly recognisable to a reasonable man as a sign of that kind.


The above was for an alleged offence of crossing Double White Lines.



Prescribed Double Yellow Lines must conform. http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2002/023113ba.gif There are NO PERMITTED VARIANTS

[seylectric]

Again, we conducted a similar debate on the other thread about signage. Strangely, there does seem to be a contradiction in the legislation because somebody else found another law that does permit councils to very the width of d/y lines.

[JonCris]

Originally Posted by seylectric

Again, we conducted a similar debate on the other thread about signage. Strangely, there does seem to be a contradiction in the legislation because somebody else found another law that does permit councils to very the width of d/y lines.

Yes they ARE allowed to vary the width (very narrow) & colour (dark red) but I believe it only applies to conservation areas

All other lines have are only allowed a certain tolerance

[seylectric]

"Allowing them to vary the width" and "allowing a certain tolerance" is exactly the same thing! Even the variations have to be within the permitted tolerance. But as I said this tends to go against the actual regulation which states that no variations are permitted.

Dark red? Conservation areas? There are rules for conservation areas, but with all due respect I really think you need to clarify these things before posting because you clearly haven't done your research, either you have been given some very poor information from somebody or you're simply guessing.

Don't take this personally but the post is in danger of misleading people. I'm not having a go, but this is a very important topic and it's imporatant that any advisory information is accurate or at least backed up with a link.

[seylectric]

Originally Posted by chrismc

Wish I knew that a couple of months ago Seylectric when I got one at Vic Hospital, never mind next time I wll be armed!!

ASK THEM FOR YOUR MONEY BACK! THEY HAVE CLAIMED IT ILLEGALLY.

[BlueRuby]

I don't think this has been answered in this or the other thread - apologies if it has! Street parking - for years I have thought that so long as the wheels of the car are inside the demarcation line you were correctly parked. But my friend refused to park on the end of a parking space because the rear bumper overhung the line and she'd been told by a TW that she would be ticketed if she left the car there! Is that right, is it legal?

[chrismc]

Originally Posted by seylectric

ASK THEM FOR YOUR MONEY BACK! THEY HAVE CLAIMED IT ILLEGALLY.

Good point!! I will look into that, thanks Selectric. I will take a good look at the area where I received the ticket, of course I did challenge it at the time, but they just wrote back with a standard no way - pay up!!.... but I didn't have all this information so I suppose I could send them a S7 Data Protection Act for that and any other parking tickets I have received over the last 6 years.... hmm!!! But thinking about it lines/signs etc could have been changed so many times in that time, so maybe it is worth just looking at this recent one?

[Sgian]

Originally Posted by BlueRuby

I don't think this has been answered in this or the other thread - apologies if it has! Street parking - for years I have thought that so long as the wheels of the car are inside the demarcation line you were correctly parked. But my friend refused to park on the end of a parking space because the rear bumper overhung the line and she'd been told by a TW that she would be ticketed if she left the car there! Is that right, is it legal?

You can only overhang the line in a parking bay (on-street) if the vehicle is too long to fit in a single bay. Even then, you are only allowed to overhang by 18cm at only one end. If the vehicle is of a size that can fit completely inside the bay, then you are not allowed to overhang, even by 1cm. That includes bumpers and tow bars. TWs might overlook a few inches overhang, but I wouldn't like to take the chance and end up with a 30 quid fine because some jobsworth carries a ruler around with him.

This is in Scotland. Not sure what the regs are for england.

[JonCris]

Originally Posted by seylectric

"Allowing them to vary the width" and "allowing a certain tolerance" is exactly the same thing! Even the variations have to be within the permitted tolerance. But as I said this tends to go against the actual regulation which states that no variations are permitted.

Dark red? Conservation areas? There are rules for conservation areas, but with all due respect I really think you need to clarify these things before posting because you clearly haven't done your research, either you have been given some very poor information from somebody or you're simply guessing.

Don't take this personally but the post is in danger of misleading people. I'm not having a go, but this is a very important topic and it's imporatant that any advisory information is accurate or at least backed up with a link.

With respect I have "Allowing them to vary the width & allowing them certain tolerances is NOT the same thing." They are permitted to paint lines on the road that either must be of one width or another in each location but whichever they choose it must be consistent in each location. They ARE allowed to paint the lines within certain tolerances. In other words whilst meeting a minimum requirement the lines don't have be EXACT.

I have done considerable research on the matter & in the process of fighting my local authority on the subject. So with respect I think you should do some of your own research before rubbishing anothers post.

As for conservation areas as I live next door to one I know precisley the sort of line marking they can display. Bright yellow lines all over the place ain't gonna hack it certainly not with those who live there

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2002/20023113.htm#12

http://www.york.gov.uk/roads/highwaydesign/Signingandlining.doc

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2002/023113ba.gif

The above cover signage in general + 3 permitted dimensions + in the case of York there is reference to the conservation area which should use primrose yellow which is a colour that looks a dark RED

[seylectric]

I wasn't trying to rubbish your post, I said don't take it personally but the post was very vague and open to misinterpretation. I see your point about the difference bewteen tolerance and width.

I also understand what you mean now about the dark red that is supposed to be primrose yellow but that's not what you said in the original post which as I said was open to misinterpretation. At least you have now backed it up with the links. Incidentally I'm not enthralled with bright yellow lines all over my street but as I don't live in a conservation area I have to put up with it.

The thing about the second link, re. York, is that if you read each council's manifest you will get a different set of rules and regs every time. The whole system is a farce.

I think the first link refers more to actual signs rather than road markings, I couldn't get the third to open but I haven't had time to read them properly yet.

Thanks for clearing up your original post, and hey, we're all on the same side. I'll bear that in mind too.

[fusar]

Can anyone help me please?

I have a parking ticket, but not issued by the council, instead a private company called Euro Car Parks, for parking apparently in a Service Area. However the "Service Area" is at the back of a number of shops, and I was actually going inot one of these chops, and was only 4 minutes! When I got back I had been issued with a "Parking Charge Notice" - no mention of contravention in the title.

1. There was also no yellow lines to demarcate the service areA, just a sign on the wall on the other side of the area.
2. Also, the sign said that all people parking within the service area would have a £25 fine, whereas on the ticket it says £50.
3. He didn't fill in all the boxes on the ticket, such as time he observed my car, before issuing the ticket.
4. As all the properties back onto each other, there are no lines to show where one companies boundary ends and the "service area" starts

Any help would be really appreciated thanks!
Sarah

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[chrismc]

Originally Posted by fusar

Can anyone help me please?

I have a parking ticket, but not issued by the council, instead a private company called Euro Car Parks, for parking apparently in a Service Area. However the "Service Area" is at the back of a number of shops, and I was actually going inot one of these chops, and was only 4 minutes! When I got back I had been issued with a "Parking Charge Notice" - no mention of contravention in the title.

1. There was also no yellow lines to demarcate the service areA, just a sign on the wall on the other side of the area.
2. Also, the sign said that all people parking within the service area would have a £25 fine, whereas on the ticket it says £50.
3. He didn't fill in all the boxes on the ticket, such as time he observed my car, before issuing the ticket.
4. As all the properties back onto each other, there are no lines to show where one companies boundary ends and the "service area" starts

Any help would be really appreciated thanks!
Sarah

Sarah,

I would say it is invalid, there seems to be a lot of things wrong with it in my opinion, but others here have more knowledge on this so let them give you advise.

Things I think are wrong:

1 No lines, or demarcation lines
2 'Penalty'
3 Wrong sign
4.Date of issue etc etc

Chris

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[seylectric]

Are the private company acting on behalf of the local council or the police? If not, it's not worth the paper it is written on. They have no legal jusisdiction over where you park, and even less right to try and "fine" you.

Even if they are acting as agents for the authorities the "parking ticket" would have to meet the legal requirements. Scan and send a copy of the ticket to seylectric@gmail.com (or post it here) and I can advise you further.

Personally I would throw it in the bin. For what it's worth it might as well be written in Japanese. Invite them to take it to court, then sit back and have a laugh.

	Fight a Motoring Ticket kit Follow this link to read the review of the "Fight a motoring ticket" kit by Lawpack. Everything you need to challenge your motoring ticket. Most motoring tickets go unchallenged. Most which are challenged are challenged successfully.

[wandererpaul]

Hi

new to this, but need some advice on where to go with this.

just been issued with a ticket parking near my parents house in Brentford Middlesex. I was parked half on and half off a bus stop. Due to parking conditions which is a nightmare in this area. The ticket issued has a code 52 which is for 'causing unnecessary obstruction'. In my eyes i wasn't obstructing any buses as the Bus stop is huge. Also, the 'was seen in' box has the address as 'Boston Manor Road W7'. This isn't correct as Bostom Manor Road is Brentford and 'Boston Road' is W7 which is 800 yards further up the road beyond the underground station. looks like it was issued by a Met.Pol. traffic warden. 7578TL their number. Do i have any grounds to contest this?

thanks in advance.

i do have a scan if that helps with the advice.

[chrismc]

Originally Posted by wandererpaul

Hi

new to this, but need some advice on where to go with this.

just been issued with a ticket parking near my parents house in Brentford Middlesex. I was parked half on and half off a bus stop. Due to parking conditions which is a nightmare in this area. The ticket issued has a code 52 which is for 'causing unnecessary obstruction'. In my eyes i wasn't obstructing any buses as the Bus stop is huge. Also, the 'was seen in' box has the address as 'Boston Manor Road W7'. This isn't correct as Bostom Manor Road is Brentford and 'Boston Road' is W7 which is 800 yards further up the road beyond the underground station. looks like it was issued by a Met.Pol. traffic warden. 7578TL their number. Do i have any grounds to contest this?

thanks in advance.

i do have a scan if that helps with the advice.

I would say if it has the wrong address they are not able to uphold it, so it is a waste of paper, but others have more experience here on PCN's

	Fight a Motoring Ticket kit Follow this link to read the review of the "Fight a motoring ticket" kit by Lawpack. Everything you need to challenge your motoring ticket. Most motoring tickets go unchallenged. Most which are challenged are challenged successfully.