Pugsley v Land of leather,Open and Direct - Page 2

nathal · 22nd September 2006, 14:42

open and direct are a drastic company, just waiting to c wat response i get from oft

pugsley · 22nd September 2006, 20:01

thanks Jon have read some of it, my contract isn't that bad and the insurance although included in the credit amount was with another company so a bit different. The extortionate side I really need to find out some more about this and get my old 2003 contract books out of the loft and print this case out and go through it all, I think I will take it as far as I can and possibly pay a solicitor at a later stage.

first things first is to get them to send the credit agreement to me, as they are so bad at answering letters it's got to be recorded. I have paid for my credit reference and am waiting to see what is on it from open and direct.

I did agree in the contract to pay £100 ( well I have a list of charges, but I'm not sure if they are in the credit agreement as such, just a separate sheet) for a solictors letter which they charged me, but they also charged for a normal letter the same price which wasn't in the terms.

this is going to be my most complicated claim I think, it's quite scary really

nathal · 22nd September 2006, 20:39

dont think anything will show on cra about o&d. I also think they will be very hard to deal with.

JonCris · 22nd September 2006, 23:34

PPI is always with a different company. The fact the seller has used a particular Insurance Company is irrelevant to you. The selling company is liable.

We ALL agreed to pay the charges until we found out they are unlawful as are the solicitors as believe me they do not represent the actual cost to the selling company.

pugsley · 23rd September 2006, 10:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonCris

PPI is always with a different company. The fact the seller has used a particular Insurance Company is irrelevant to you. The selling company is liable.

We ALL agreed to pay the charges until we found out they are unlawful as are the solicitors as believe me they do not represent the actual cost to the selling company.

Thanks good points, at the time I never intended to go into the red anyway, but circumstances change, I was intending to pay it all off within the year, but my income went down considerably and unexpectedly (CSA!). The case mentions no insurance company (they couldn't find a policy with anyone) that is why I was getting confused.

Nathal I think open and direct are on my credit record for equifax, because I when I went through one of the questions asked for was have you a loan with open and direct, lombard etc and you had to chose a, b,or c etc.

tamadus · 23rd September 2006, 20:18

Wow pugsley this looks complicated. My initial impressions are:

1. It is normal practice for the lender to charge interest on PPI as they simply add the cost onto the loan total.
2. The costs of letters is very exhorbitant and is obviously unfair.
3. Send everything to them from now by recorded delivery. That will (or should) eliminate the excuse of 'we never got a letter', which will be valuable if it ever goes to court.
4. I would send an S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) and clearly include that you want the original agreement as part of the data, otherwise send a CCA section 77(1) request (this is a fixed agreement not running credit).
5. Sit down with everything you have in connection to this account and file it all in sequential order. That way you can see the entire picture unfolding and take action accordingly.

Once they reply to those then please update here so we can offer further advice according to their responses.

JonCris · 24th September 2006, 00:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by tamadus

Wow pugsley this looks complicated. My initial impressions are:

1. It is normal practice for the lender to charge interest on PPI as they simply add the cost onto the loan total.
2. The costs of letters is very exhorbitant and is obviously unfair.
3. Send everything to them from now by recorded delivery. That will (or should) eliminate the excuse of 'we never got a letter', which will be valuable if it ever goes to court.
4. I would send an S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) and clearly include that you want the original agreement as part of the data, otherwise send a CCA section 77(1) request (this is a fixed agreement not running credit).
5. Sit down with everything you have in connection to this account and file it all in sequential order. That way you can see the entire picture unfolding and take action accordingly.

Once they reply to those then please update here so we can offer further advice according to their responses.

tamadus read this
http://www.creditlaw.co.uk/Documents/Full%20case%20-%20London%20North%20Secur ities%20v%20Meadows.doc

tamadus · 24th September 2006, 01:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonCris

tamadus read this
http://www.creditlaw.co.uk/Documents...%20Meadows.doc

Hmmm this needs a user name and password JonCris, its obviously an actual case ruling but want to explain how it applies as I can't actually read it

tamadus · 24th September 2006, 02:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by tamadus

Hmmm this needs a user name and password JonCris, its obviously an actual case ruling but want to explain how it applies as I can't actually read it

JonCris, I got to see the document you suggested and recall the case making the headlines a while ago.

Reading this judgement indicates that adding PPI onto the original loan could make the entire agreement unenforceable. Much of this case hinged around clearing the original arrears and paying for the insurance policy was included in the charge for credit figures. Is that the point you are making here ? If it is then another can of worms is opened as PPI is regularly added onto the loan and interest charged on the premium. Unless of course it's so late (again) that I am missing the point.

JonCris · 24th September 2006, 08:09

No you are not missing the point & since this case I posted some time ago that PPI being added may render the agreement unenforcable.

Yes this case did make headline news at the time mainly because of the implications for all lenders. In fact you will note the the lawyers acting for the lenders specificaly refer to such implications for all lenders.

tamadus · 24th September 2006, 10:13

Ok so considering this case and relating it to pugsleys problem the following points now come to mind.

1. Did pugsley ask for PPI insurance. - Obviously not as, in addition to signing for the loan she also signed to waive PPI. It has been added arbitrarily by the loan company. As a consequence it's included in the total charge for credit and therefore the agreement should become unenforceable. Clearly as interest is being charged on the insurance part it also amounts to a penalty.

2. The agreement itself also raises questions as its been signed twice.

3. Clearly the charges being applied are also penalties.

So IMHO pugsley needs to write a letter disputing the legal status of the agreement, which will obviously be counterclaimed. This one is obviously going ot need a lot of work and may even need proper legal advice.

JonCris · 24th September 2006, 11:17

Not only that but if pugsley do not sign the agreement to include PPI a criminal fraud may have taken place.

However most likely is the company will claim clerical error neverthless this should at the very least be reported to the authorities as a 1st step.

The adding of PPI without consent almost certainly makes the agreement unenforcable as being not only false but not properly executed.

tamadus · 24th September 2006, 11:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonCris

Not only that but if pugsley do not sign the agreement to include PPI a criminal fraud may have taken place.

However most likely is the company will claim clerical error neverthless this should at the very least be reported to the authorities as a 1st step.

The adding of PPI without consent almost certainly makes the agreement unenforcable as being not only false but not properly executed.

Pugsley herself states she signed for PPI and then signed waiving it so at the very least the agreement should have been completely redone to eliminate possible confusion. I agree that them assuming it was required despite it also being signed to waive PPI does leave a door open to fraud.

I fully agree it should be reported to the authorities immediately

Again I fully agree IMHO this agreement is unenforceable.

Pugsley you now need to organise your file on this and start sending recorded letters with the intention of getting this one dealt with quickly. They are going to fight it all the way but you have our full support and for what it's worth our advice.

pugsley · 24th September 2006, 12:05

thanks for that, I am writing a letter asking for the credit agreement and deed of assignment if any first, I will send it recorded tomorrow, are there any implications I might need to be aware of regarding the company being in Belfast? Rockwell debt recovery has been instructed to collect this debt, southend office, I am not sure if it's been sold on or not.

tamadus · 24th September 2006, 12:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by pugsley

thanks for that, I am writing a letter asking for the credit agreement and deed of assignment if any first, I will send it recorded tomorrow, are there any implications I might need to be aware of regarding the company being in Belfast? Rockwell debt recovery has been instructed to collect this debt, southend office, I am not sure if it's been sold on or not.

I expect their are some implications but I have to admit I don't know what they are at thsi point pugsley

My suggestion is send the letter and find out if it has been sold to an English DCA, then my guess is you can proceed under English law. Sorry I cant be of more help on this bit.

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