Vanquis CCA Request

[mhenry9885]

Hi People,

I stupidly took out a vanquis card with a limit of £250 and an APR of 39.9%!!!!, Which apparantly I applied for online (can't remember it was two years ago)

Since then they have increased my limit up to £1000 but also hiked the APR to 49.9% which has crippling minimum
monthly repayments.

I sent them a CCA request and they have sent back a blank which doesn't have my name, original credit limit, APR or signature. It says 'We will set your credit limit and advise you' and 'You will be on Tier A, B, C, or D Interest rate (being different amounts)

Have they legally fulfilled the request or not as I don't think they have.

Thanks Chaps

[foolishgirl]

They have fulfilled their obligation under the CCA as they have provided you with a copy of your 'agreement'; however it is definitely not enforceable. The following is a response for the receipt of an application form & T&Cs but you could amend to suit you:

Dear Sirs,

Account Number: XXX

Re; your recent reply to my request under section 77-79 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974

I note that you have replied to the above by sending a copy of an application form and your companies current Terms and conditions I must inform you that this is not sufficient to comply with the request and that your company is still in default under the act.

To clarify, just sending the Terms and Conditions is a breach of the Act and Regulations as, apart from the information that the Regulations provide that you may exclude, the copy must be a “true copy” of the agreement.

This breach of the agreement can be demonstrated as follows;
As you will know section 180(1) (b) authorises, “the omission from a copy of certain material from the original, or the inclusion of certain material in condensed form.” This refers to statutory instruments made under the heading Copies of document regulations and in this care in particular to SI 1983/1557.

Before leaving section 180 there are two other sections that should be remembered these are:

Section 2(2) (a) A duty imposed by any provision of this Act (except section 35) to supply a copy of any document is not satisfied unless the copy supplied is in the prescribed form and conforms to the prescribed requirements;

And more importantly

Section 2(b) A duty imposed by any provision of this Act (except section 35) to supply a copy of any document is not infringed by the omission of any material, or its inclusion in condensed form, if that is authorised by regulations.

You will see that this quite clearly states that whilst certain items may be left out of the copy document the rest of the document must be in the form and contain all items as prescribed by the regulations.

Turning to the regulations regarding what may be omitted from these copies these are contained with SI 1983/1557.

The regulations state:
(2) There may be omitted from any such copy-
(a) any information included in an executed agreement, security instrument or other document relating to the debtor, hirer or surety or included for the use of the creditor or owner only which is not required to be included therein by the Act or any Regulations thereunder as to the form and content of the document of which it is a copy;
(b) any signature box, signature or date of signature (other than, in the case of a copy of a cancelable executed agreement delivered to the debtor under section 63(1) of the Act, the date of signature by the debtor of an agreement to which section 68(b) of the Act applies);

It is quite clear what can be omitted from the copy document, this again asserts that all other details of the agreement should presented in form and content as required by the regulations.

The requirements of the Agreement regulations 1983/1553 are very explicit in describing the form and content of an agreement and this as I have demonstrated also applies to the copy of any such agreement with the above mentioned proviso.

Nowhere within these regulations does it state that part of the agreement can be presented on a separate document headed terms and conditions.
It does state that all terms and conditions should be within the agreement document and is explicit of the form in which it is presented.

I hope this explains why your reply was unacceptable I await a True copy of my agreement and would remind you again that whilst the request has not been complied with the default continues

[supasnooper]

Hi there,

Welcome to CAG. I'm sure you'll gain some good advice from our members.



Good luck and keep the thread updated as and when things progress.

[mhenry9885]

Excellent, thanks for that. It will be in the post tomorrow. 49.9%!! bloomin rob-bags.

[mhenry9885]

Just had a phone call from Vanquis but this time they are calling themselves Impact Collection Services.

I told them that the account was in dispute and until Vanquis can provide me with an enforceable agreement, they may not pursue the balance. Her reply was

"I know what you are trying to do, you are trying to get away with not paying your debt..." and "You applied online and ticked the box which means you agreed to our terms and conditions"

I don't actually think I did apply online, surely they have to prove this first?

I asked for all future correspondance in writing and no more phone calls to which she replied

"Until you repay your arrears you will continue to receive phone calls from us"

I told her it's harassment but denied it was as I owed them money.

I think they will be getting an harassment letter.

[foolishgirl]

Originally Posted by mhenry9885

I don't actually think I did apply online, surely they have to prove this first?

They have to provide an agreement, never mind prove you applied online - cheeky beggars!

I told her it's harassment but denied it was as I owed them money.

I think they will be getting an harassment letter.

Send the harassment letter, also keep a log of all calls received from them (whether you answer them or not).

BTW if you refuse to answer the security questions they ask, they can't pursue the conversation

[mhenry9885]

Quick question with regards to enforceability.

Does a credit agreement have to tell me the exact interest rate which will be applied to an account or are they able to say it will be either A, B, C or D as they have done with me?

Thanks

[foolishgirl]

The actual agreement must state the interest rate applicable at the time of signing the agreement. If you are unsure suggest you post up your 'agreement' with the personal details removed for CAGers to advise further.

[mhenry9885]

Hi, I have attached the agreement as requested, I have only included the first two pages as this is where the relevant info is

Thanks

Vanquis 'CCA' Page 1 picture by mhenry9885 - Photobucket

Vanquis 'CCA' Page 2 picture by mhenry9885 - Photobucket

[foolishgirl]

This looks like the T&Cs that would have been attached as part of your agreement & they, quite correctly, state the financial data; however there would have been a sheet with your name & address details & signature on it that is the actual agreement. On this it would prob. state which Tier applied to you & refer you to this financial clause in the T&Cs.

However to be enforceable, the agreement plus these T&Cs would have to form the same document i.e. these T&Cs couldn't have come from a later document & the OC would have to prove it so.

[mhenry9885]

It says the agreement is between Vanquis Bank Ltd and 'The Person signing this agreement and whose name and address is stated on the reply card or your application'

Would I be correct in presuming that this 'agreement' is unenforceable, I want to start bartering with them on a reduced settlement figure.

[foolishgirl]

Have you got any other docs. other than those you've posted up already, mhenry?

Those you've posted are not an 'agreement' as under the CCA1974.

[mhenry9885]

All I have is what they sent to me following my CCA request. It is headed 'Vanquis Credit Card Agreement and Full Terms'

Pictures by mhenry9885 - Photobucket

[foolishgirl]

Originally Posted by mhenry9885

It is headed 'Vanquis Credit Card Agreement and Full Terms'

If this is all they have, it is DEFINITELY not enforceable, it's T&Cs pure & simple, full stop.

If you haven't sent them the letter in Post 2 yet, amend it to reflect the fact that they have only sent T&Cs & send it Rec. Del, do not sign (print or use digital signature) Give them 10 days to produce an agreement with the prescribed terms & your details on it, preferably an exact copy with your signature & date on it.

[mhenry9885]

I had already sent the one out as described in post 2, will modify it and send again if I do not hear anything. If all else fails will a Subject Access Request produce a valid agreement if they had one?

[foolishgirl]

It should do but won't necessarily - even if you specifically ask for it

However if they then produced one at a later date as part of a claim against you, not only would they look pretty stupid, you could also claim they didn't comply properly with the Data Protection Act in that they did not supply you with all the information you were entitled to.

The only way to reliably flush it out is under the CPR31.

[mhenry9885]

How would I start the ball rolling with CPR 31 then? Do they have to take me to court first?

[foolishgirl]

No, you apply to see if you have grounds for taking them to court!

Suggest you read this thread carefully before you start down this route though - there can be cost implications.
why you shouldnt use section 77/78 CCA 1974 if you want the signed agreement

[mhenry9885]

Got my Subject Access Request back from them today, what a surprise no credit agreement, or even proof that I applied online. Just advice to the call centre advisor saying 'ADV the cardholder that he applied online therefore he accepted the terms and conditions etc etc'.

Also, they haven't sent transactions so I cant even be sure that the amount they are pursuing is correct.

They have sent charges and interest information but as a complete sum and not a breakdown.

Guess it's a non compliance letter going in the post...

I'm going to ask them for some prepaid envelopes!

[thrubolt]

Hello all, sorry for hijacking, but I am useless at starting my own thread. The same thing has just happened me 2 days ago, I cca'd Vanquis, and they sent me a blank copy of an application form, 5 pages of current T & C's and a copy of new updates which was effective from February, which I never received in an original form. They never supplied me with statements - just a supposed current figure, and low and behold they reckon that they have complied to my request - what my letter stated was "A TRUE SIGNED COPY OF THE ORIGINAL DOCUMENTS" My colleague at work said thats like us sending a a blank headed invoice to a customer and demanding payment and expecting a payment from them - You have probably guessed the reply we would get. I am going to fire off a non-compliance letter as well, lets face it - if this lot threatened court action they would surely be full of s***