BobbyH V Welcome Finance

[bobbyh99]

OK I thought I would start a thread because I need a small piece of advice.

When I send a preliminary letter to Welcome for return of charges plus interest on a couple of redeemed loan accounts (1 secured - 1 unsecured) which argument can I use the Penalties or the UTCCR or both. Or should I treat this the same as the Bank and just use the UTCCR?

Thanks
BobbyH

[bobbyh99]

OK - I have received WF "Final Response to you Complaint" letter which says

"Account Number xxxxxxxx
You made each monthly contractual payment on time and in full to this account. Therefore, no fees for late payments, telephone calls or letters were applied to this account.

You have claimed for a refund of £58.59 which is listed as 'penalty fees'. When a customer settles their account early, we are entitled to make a charge in relation to the interest that would have accrued, had the loan run to its full term. The £58.59 listed represents this charge and you are therefore not entitled to claim a refund for this amount.

Account Number xxxxxxxxx
Regarding your belief that the charges are allegedly disporportionate in relation to the actual loss suffered by us, we would refer to the case Dunlop Pneumatic v New Garage [1915] AC 79, which states that a penalty would only arise: "if the sum stipulated is extravagant and unconsionable in amount in comparison with the greatest loss that could conceivably be proved to have followed from the breach."

We would be entitled to recover the full balance of the agreement if you failed to make payment to the account. Consequently any charges applied to the account cannot be disproportionate when compared to what we would be entitled to recover as a results of your breach of contract.

Further, we would refer you to the recent High Court Case between the OFT and certain banks, with a view to determining issues of legal principle in relation to the recovery of charges made under bank current account arrangements, and the applicability or otherwise of the UTCCR 1999 and other legislation to such charges, where it was stated by Justice Andrew Smith at paragraph 449 that none of the charges levied could be unenforecable, on the grounds that they are not penalties.

By signing you loan agreement, you entered into a legally binding contract to make payments to us. You will be aware that there are a number of occasions on which you did not make your contractual payments, and we feel it was not unreasonable for our staff to seek to contact you to request that you recommence your contarctual payments. I can confirm however, you have not been charged for each telephone call that it was necessary to make to you."

OK I can agree, I think, with the £58.59, this seems to be an ERC, although on their statements it clearly says "Penalty Charge".

My question is, how shall I react to this? I would prefer the court route to FOS, but obviously I need to know how I should reply to this letter in my LBA.

Thanks
BobbyH

[bobbyh99]

OK I am concentrating on the unsecured loan I had with WF.

I took out a loan in March 05. In December 05 I took out another loan. The first loan was settled with the second loan. This is a regular thing for WF I have read.

What I am checking is because I paid both loans off early, did I pay the correct settlement amounts. It becomes more complicated because the first loan should have been settled under the 1983 regulations and the second loan under the 2004 regulations.

Whilst I can quite easily work out what I should have settled on the first loan! applying this to the second loan and working out what I should have settled/paid is far too complicated.

For instance if the settlement figure for the first loan is wrong (and I believe it is) then this renders all the details on the second loan wrong!

Are there any experts available to assist me in calculating the details of the 2nd loan with the settlement figure included from the 1st loan?

I hope I haven't confused you all.

I have statements for both loans, plus copies of the credit agreements. Both agreements include PPI etc.
There was not any arrears on either loan!

Thanks
BobbyH

[postggj]

hi boby and welcome to the wonderful world of welcome agreements

for a start
on the first loan, did you get a rebate for the ppi etc

a general rule is a second agreement cancels out the first, welcome trick this as they discover the first agreement is usually crap.

but if its made up of dodgy figures ?

the only person i know who has ever got there head around this is peter barred

might be worth sending a pm

[bobbyh99]

postggj

The insurance on the 1st loan was called Lifecare 24 and was £175 added to the loan amount. This was a 60 month term life insurance of £17,000 (not quite sure why I needed £17,000 cover for such a small loan nor why I needed it for 60 months when the loan was for 24 months). Anyway, I guess as its a life insurance policy no rebate would have been due, although I can't for the life of me think why I would have wanted or needed this.

Thanks for the name, I will PM him.

BobbyH

[postggj]

bobby

contact direct group

they do all the addmin on welcomes insurance policies

be interested to know what details they hold

do you have insurance

you need copy of the policies
statement of needs
underwriting sheets
what commission payments were paid

if they delay

Subject Access Request them

it to your advantage

[bobbyh99]

sorry to bother you again postggj

but what is Peter Barred's username as it does not appear on the recipients list as this?

Thanks

[postggj]

peter has been ill as late

ill send him the pm and give your thread a link

[bobbyh99]

much appreciated thanks

[bobbyh99]

I have been reading some threads whereby interest is being applied to Acceptance Fees and the like?

Can anyone confirm that this practice shouldn't happen? and perhaps point me in the direction of where it says this shouldn't happen?

Thanks
Bobbyh

[postggj]

how old is the agreement

[bobbyh99]

Nov 01 - Secured loan
Mar 05 - Unsecured loan
Dec 05 - Unsecured loan

Thanks

[postggj]

ok

they are old enough
are any of the loan re-written as this will cancel out the previouse
can you post the agreements onto your thread minus personel details but leave in the figures

which of the above loans have ended if any

[bobbyh99]

postggj

The December 05 loan was a re-write of the March 05 loan.
They have all been settled early and all appear to have acceptance fees etc.

All 3 agreements are attached, including the Insurances where I have them.

What I am trying to check is whether the settlements were the correct amounts as experience with another lender tells me this wasn't the case!

Thanks
BobbyH

[bobbyh99]

I have just been reading the March 05 loan documents again, and one of the insurance policies is "Lifecare24". This is a 5 year Term Life policy with a benefit of £17,000.

I have just phoned Direct Group and this policy is still inforce (surprised!) and expires in March 2010.

The Loan was for £750 over 2 years, the policy which WF sold me was for £17,000 over 5 years!!

Is it possible to mis-sell a life insurance with a lump sum benefit on death??

BobbyH

[postggj]

Bobby

You Surprise Me Every Time
Well Done

Phone Direct Group And Ask For Copies Of All Policies They Hold On You

Its Important But Need To See Policy Docs To Confirm

ASK DIRECT FOR ALL STATEMENT OF NEEDS DOCS AS WELL

You Might Be In For A Pay Day

Cretins

[bobbyh99]

OK phoned Direct Group and they are sending me policy documents for 3 policies they have on their system.

Welcome Lifecare 24 - Term Life - £17,000 - 60 month term - expires in March 2010

Welcome PPI (Unsec) (05) - PPI - 24 month term

Medicare 1 Unit (05) - Personal Accident - 36 month term

BobbyH

[bobbyh99]

OK I thought I would just add something as I have just read andie_303 PPI thread re.WF.

When I spoke to Direct Group about these policies, she said that they would forward me all the policy documents they have on the 3 policies mentioned in post 17. This implies they do hold these documents which I think I read in Andie_303's thread they said they did not.

Fortunately, I have a number of documents from WF (Policy Schedules) which have a policy number on them beginning with "WMC" followed by 7 numbers. I quoted this policy number to DG and she found the policies straight away.

Also, it would appear that when you take a loan with WF and they lump on the insurances, you then ask WF to borrow more money and they refinance the original loan with a new loan and add more insurances, the "WMC" policy number remains the same except for a "/1" at the end. The lady at DG said these are still the same policy just additions to the main policy.

She also did say that you need to contact WF for any statement of needs documents as they don't hold copies of them!

On a separate point, although still WF, I have found some correspondence (actually a letter) from myself to WF stating that I did not want the PPI insurance on the Secured Loan I had in 2001 and requesting them to re-jig the credit agreement minus the PPI!

BobbyH

P.S. can someone move this thread to the WF section?

[postggj]

She also did say that you need to contact WF for any statement of needs documents as they don't hold copies of them!


THATS ROLLOCKS
ITS CALLED PASSING THE BUCK
DO DIRECT GROUP ADDMIN THE INSURANCE OR NO

OR WHEN IT SUITS THEM
SO WE WILL PLAY THERE GAME

SEND A REQUEST BY RECORDED DELIEVERY TO WELCOME

[bobbyh99]

OK received policy documents from DG. There aren't any statement of needs attached!!

Sending request to WF for these documents today.

BobbyH

P.S. Can this thread be moved to the WF forum?