The OFT Case

[Bookworm]

Originally Posted by wino

It says in the Mail On Sunday today that the decision on the test case has been delayed for three months until July!
Why is it taking so long?
If I was in court for taking someones money unlawfully I bet the judge would make a decision pretty quickly.

But that isn't what the case is about Wino. This case is about whether bank overdrafts and their regimen of charges come under the OFT's remit, and whether the UTCCR apply to the banks.

It is taking that long because some of the points of law are obscure enough that it shouldn't be judged on a whim and I actually think that isn't a bad thing.

There was a case in the US recently about the twin towers attack, the WTC's owners arguing that there were 2 separate events and they should therefore receive 2 payouts of $3.55 billion. Their insurers claimed that it was one event and therefore only 1 payout was due. The case rested on semantics, quite simply, and the interpretation of what constitutes an "event".

Let's not underestimate how much leeway there is to interpret the caselaw the judge has to go through before making his decision.

	Bank Charges You should have started your claim for your bank charges by now. Don't wait. You should send your bank a Subject Acess Request asking for all personal data they hold on you - not just statements. You should calculate all of your bank charges and related interest as far back as 1995. You should send your bank a demand for a refund giving them 7 days. You should commence your legal action adding 8% statutory interest. If you wait for the outcome of the test case, you may not be able to claim like this. you may not be able to claim interest. You may only be offered the difference between the charge and the OFT "fair charge". The repayment scheme will try to limit you to refinds from 2001 only. A repayment scheme will not deal with any bank charges related defaults on the credit register whereas in a court action you can ask for these to be removed and to be compensated for the damage caused to you and your family by them. You should also write to the bank and to the CRA and put all charges related credit entries in disupte and warn them that you will want them removed from the Register when the test case is over. Warn them also that you are likely to be seeking compensation for these wrongful data entries. Full and final settlement Have you previously accepted a partial repayment of your bank charges in full settlement? You will still be able to claim the rest of your money back after the Test case is decided. Get all your information back to 1995 and put in your claim now.

[breeze1996]

I've just been reading someone's emails to the OFT. He wrote several times to them and asked a few points about the stays but it all boiled down to was wait and see.

The OFT are the same as everyone else, until the judge says we are all just guessing.

[JonCris]

Anyone who believes the banks excuses needs to see their nursy

"No records going back over 6 years" - we ALL know that ain't true - unless of course the devious bums have, in the meantime, destroyed all of those that do

[Conniff]

And what about those that have their statements dating back to when they opened their account, maybe 20 odd years, that should override any attempt at limiting the claim.

If the judge had seen actual statements from customers ie £6 overdrawn and £75 charges, then he would have been able to make a decision within a week of the case ending.

[Bookworm]

Originally Posted by Conniff

If the judge had seen actual statements from customers ie £6 overdrawn and £75 charges, then he would have been able to make a decision within a week of the case ending.

No, as it isn't what this case is about, not in the first instance anyway.

[breeze1996]

I know the judge is just going to decide whether the charges are legal, and the OFT are still looking into the true cost of bank charges.

So does that meant if the judge decides the charges are not legal, then before anything else happens the banks could offer a reduction to current charges and give us back past bank charges. I ask this as I know the OFT said they would accept any reasonable offer from the banks. The OFT know this could run for years and the banks really want this finished with.... soon or so I was told.

My thinking is along the lines of the banks know it cost less that £5 to clear so they would still make a profit if it was agreed that a smaller amount could legally be charged for fees, so they would have half a cake.

	Bank Charges You should have started your claim for your bank charges by now. Don't wait. You should send your bank a Subject Acess Request asking for all personal data they hold on you - not just statements. You should calculate all of your bank charges and related interest as far back as 1995. You should send your bank a demand for a refund giving them 7 days. You should commence your legal action adding 8% statutory interest. If you wait for the outcome of the test case, you may not be able to claim like this. you may not be able to claim interest. You may only be offered the difference between the charge and the OFT "fair charge". The repayment scheme will try to limit you to refinds from 2001 only. A repayment scheme will not deal with any bank charges related defaults on the credit register whereas in a court action you can ask for these to be removed and to be compensated for the damage caused to you and your family by them. You should also write to the bank and to the CRA and put all charges related credit entries in disupte and warn them that you will want them removed from the Register when the test case is over. Warn them also that you are likely to be seeking compensation for these wrongful data entries. Full and final settlement Have you previously accepted a partial repayment of your bank charges in full settlement? You will still be able to claim the rest of your money back after the Test case is decided. Get all your information back to 1995 and put in your claim now.

[Bookworm]

Originally Posted by breeze1996

I know the judge is just going to decide whether the charges are legal,

No, the judge is going to decide whether the UTCCR apply to the bank and therefore if the OFT has the right to tell them what to do. Am I not saying it right or something?

and the OFT are still looking into the true cost of bank charges.

As far as I am aware, their enquiry is complete, actually, but the publication of their findings has been delayed until the test case is resolved.

I ask this as I know the OFT said they would accept any reasonable offer from the banks.

Where did they say that? Can you post a link? I have never seen this said anywhere, so would be very interested to see that. As they are the banks' regulator, I have to tell you I am very surprised that they would have said such a thing.

The OFT know this could run for years and the banks really want this finished with.... soon or so I was told.

Actually, both the OFT and the banks are fully aware this could go on for years, but the banks have a lot more to gain by dragging it out than the OFT.

My thinking is along the lines of the banks know it cost less that £5 to clear so they would still make a profit if it was agreed that a smaller amount could legally be charged for fees, so they would have half a cake.

Well, yeah, but since that reasoning is flawed from the first, it hardly applies. If the OFT has jurisdiction, it can -and no doubt will- impose a maximum charge. It won't make the previous charges unreclaimable, it won't mean that the banks only have to repay the difference between those amounts (even though I am sure they will try to convince us they can! ).
On the other hand, if the judge decides that the charges are for a service and do not come under the OFT's remit, then we are all screwed anyway and we won't get a penny back.

	Bank Charges You should have started your claim for your bank charges by now. Don't wait. You should send your bank a Subject Acess Request asking for all personal data they hold on you - not just statements. You should calculate all of your bank charges and related interest as far back as 1995. You should send your bank a demand for a refund giving them 7 days. You should commence your legal action adding 8% statutory interest. If you wait for the outcome of the test case, you may not be able to claim like this. you may not be able to claim interest. You may only be offered the difference between the charge and the OFT "fair charge". The repayment scheme will try to limit you to refinds from 2001 only. A repayment scheme will not deal with any bank charges related defaults on the credit register whereas in a court action you can ask for these to be removed and to be compensated for the damage caused to you and your family by them. You should also write to the bank and to the CRA and put all charges related credit entries in disupte and warn them that you will want them removed from the Register when the test case is over. Warn them also that you are likely to be seeking compensation for these wrongful data entries. Full and final settlement Have you previously accepted a partial repayment of your bank charges in full settlement? You will still be able to claim the rest of your money back after the Test case is decided. Get all your information back to 1995 and put in your claim now.

[breeze1996]

9. Does reference to voluntary cooperation mean that the OFT may simply do a deal with the banks behind closed doors? [Back to top]
No. We want to see fair treatment of consumers and are determined to secure successful resolution on these charges for the benefit of consumers. Our position is simply that, if we can resolve any concerns we have about the fairness of the charges without the need for further, lengthy, court action, then this would be in the best interest of consumers.For example, if the banks gave satisfactory undertakings about their conduct. This is no different to the approach we would take in any UTCCRs case. In any event, we are required by the Enterprise Act 2002, to consult with the banks to try to put a stop to any unlawful charges before starting any enforcement proceedings.

The Office of Fair Trading: Questions and answers for OFT personal current account work

Have I misunderstood this Bookworm? It's from the OFT's own web pages have included the link

	Are you letting your bank keep your money Are you giving away thousands of pounds?? Many people aren't claiming all of the money they are entitled to when they make their bank charges claims. You have been forced to pay unfair bank charges. Have you forgotten that your bank has charged you inteest on those charges? If you are overdrawn and the bank owes you charges - then your overdraft is made up of charges - money which you bank owes you. Yet you are paying interest to the bank - on your own money!!! Follow this link to see the discussions on this. You might even double th size of your claim.

[Bookworm]

Thanks for that.

I think that this paragraph was part of the original FAQs about the original enquiry into overdrafts charges, a few months before the test case was announced, and that the FAQs got updated higher up with queries about the test case, but that this particular paragraph stayed on... causing quite a bit of confusion for people who haven't been following this from day one and before, I have to say!

I am pretty sure of this because of this bit:
"Our position is simply that, if we can resolve any concerns we have about the fairness of the charges without the need for further, lengthy, court action, then this would be in the best interest of consumers."

Reading between the lines, I think the OFT tried to get the banks to lower their charges voluntarily following the credit card enquiry of April 06, the banks totally refused to back down and increased their charges further and tried to hide behind new-fangled T&Cs, saying: "ooh, these charges are fees for a legitimate service, therefore do not come under your remit, you can't touch us now", leaving the OFT with little choice but to seek resolution through the courts, and this lead to the test case.

That's how it reads to me anyway.

	Bank Charges You should have started your claim for your bank charges by now. Don't wait. You should send your bank a Subject Acess Request asking for all personal data they hold on you - not just statements. You should calculate all of your bank charges and related interest as far back as 1995. You should send your bank a demand for a refund giving them 7 days. You should commence your legal action adding 8% statutory interest. If you wait for the outcome of the test case, you may not be able to claim like this. you may not be able to claim interest. You may only be offered the difference between the charge and the OFT "fair charge". The repayment scheme will try to limit you to refinds from 2001 only. A repayment scheme will not deal with any bank charges related defaults on the credit register whereas in a court action you can ask for these to be removed and to be compensated for the damage caused to you and your family by them. You should also write to the bank and to the CRA and put all charges related credit entries in disupte and warn them that you will want them removed from the Register when the test case is over. Warn them also that you are likely to be seeking compensation for these wrongful data entries. Full and final settlement Have you previously accepted a partial repayment of your bank charges in full settlement? You will still be able to claim the rest of your money back after the Test case is decided. Get all your information back to 1995 and put in your claim now.

	Are you letting your bank keep your money Are you giving away thousands of pounds?? Many people aren't claiming all of the money they are entitled to when they make their bank charges claims. You have been forced to pay unfair bank charges. Have you forgotten that your bank has charged you inteest on those charges? If you are overdrawn and the bank owes you charges - then your overdraft is made up of charges - money which you bank owes you. Yet you are paying interest to the bank - on your own money!!! Follow this link to see the discussions on this. You might even double th size of your claim.

[Macedonian]

I ask this as I know the OFT said they would accept any reasonable offer from the banks.
[quote=Bookworm;1449941]
Where did they say that? Can you post a link? I have never seen this said anywhere, so would be very interested to see that. As they are the banks' regulator, I have to tell you I am very surprised that they would have said such a thing.
[quote]

I suspect that this is the info on cutting a deal that Breeze is referring to, 11th September last year.

BBC NEWS | Business | OFT may compromise on bank case

[breeze1996]

Updated 11 March 2008

This is the date at the top of the page where the link is.
It's an answer under the current questions and answers from OFT.
That's why I thought it would still aply.

[Bookworm]

Yes, I can see why it would look confusing, as I said!

Macedonian, thanks for the article, it does make sense, but I think that it is too late for that now.

In the same way that when we went to court, the banks could settle in full all the way to the hearing, once the the case has been laid out in front of the judge, and the case is concluded, it is no longer really in either of the parties' hands. I think that the OFT probably hoped that the banks would back down with them the way they used to with us little people, but between then and now... well, there's been a whole test case and all of our hopes rely on one man.

If you guys pray, pray for his continued good physical and mental health, a heart attack or Alzheimers would not be any good!

	Bank Charges You should have started your claim for your bank charges by now. Don't wait. You should send your bank a Subject Acess Request asking for all personal data they hold on you - not just statements. You should calculate all of your bank charges and related interest as far back as 1995. You should send your bank a demand for a refund giving them 7 days. You should commence your legal action adding 8% statutory interest. If you wait for the outcome of the test case, you may not be able to claim like this. you may not be able to claim interest. You may only be offered the difference between the charge and the OFT "fair charge". The repayment scheme will try to limit you to refinds from 2001 only. A repayment scheme will not deal with any bank charges related defaults on the credit register whereas in a court action you can ask for these to be removed and to be compensated for the damage caused to you and your family by them. You should also write to the bank and to the CRA and put all charges related credit entries in disupte and warn them that you will want them removed from the Register when the test case is over. Warn them also that you are likely to be seeking compensation for these wrongful data entries. Full and final settlement Have you previously accepted a partial repayment of your bank charges in full settlement? You will still be able to claim the rest of your money back after the Test case is decided. Get all your information back to 1995 and put in your claim now.

[Macedonian]

Originally Posted by Bookworm

Yes, I can see why it would look confusing, as I said!

Macedonian, thanks for the article, it does make sense, but I think that it is too late for that now.

In the same way that when we went to court, the banks could settle in full all the way to the hearing, once the the case has been laid out in front of the judge, and the case is concluded, it is no longer really in either of the parties' hands. I think that the OFT probably hoped that the banks would back down with them the way they used to with us little people, but between then and now... well, there's been a whole test case and all of our hopes rely on one man.

It surely is now too late for this.

I think the important thing here is that it indicates the OFT's lack of resolve to push the issue through, if they could find a soft option. Further to this, it suggests strongly that they feel no necessity to enforce the full legal position that all penalty charges are unlawful, if exceeding the actual costs incurred. Rather like the mysterious £12 credit card charges (they have never justified or explained that figure BTW), they seem to be happy with a compromise that allows the banks to keep vast amounts of consumers' money regardless of the legal position.

Another point touched on above is the 6-year period. If the OFT wanted to ensure that all unlawful charges would be repaid if the High Court finds for them in the test case, then they should have insisted that the courts placed an injunction on the banks to prevent them destroying evidence as it reaches 6 years. This was not even discussed when our claims were put on indefinite hold, and I think it says clearly that they have no intention of fighting for the return of older charges. In the case of some credit cards - at least - it is clear from my experience that the banks destroy every statement they can as the 6 year point passes.

Whilst the OFT has been forced to take action, belatedly, on penalty charges, it is regrettable that their actions seem unlikely to see the return of the full amounts that claimants are entitled to in law. It will be very interesting to see what follows the judgement, as they are aware that any half-baked solution - like the £12 - will probably not settle the matter, any more than it did with the credit card ruling. Although the banks have tried to make out that this is some approved charge, in my experience I have fought every one successfully, as they know they have no defence to the legal position.

	Bank Charges You should have started your claim for your bank charges by now. Don't wait. You should send your bank a Subject Acess Request asking for all personal data they hold on you - not just statements. You should calculate all of your bank charges and related interest as far back as 1995. You should send your bank a demand for a refund giving them 7 days. You should commence your legal action adding 8% statutory interest. If you wait for the outcome of the test case, you may not be able to claim like this. you may not be able to claim interest. You may only be offered the difference between the charge and the OFT "fair charge". The repayment scheme will try to limit you to refinds from 2001 only. A repayment scheme will not deal with any bank charges related defaults on the credit register whereas in a court action you can ask for these to be removed and to be compensated for the damage caused to you and your family by them. You should also write to the bank and to the CRA and put all charges related credit entries in disupte and warn them that you will want them removed from the Register when the test case is over. Warn them also that you are likely to be seeking compensation for these wrongful data entries. Full and final settlement Have you previously accepted a partial repayment of your bank charges in full settlement? You will still be able to claim the rest of your money back after the Test case is decided. Get all your information back to 1995 and put in your claim now.

[JonCris]

IMHO this case is a complete sham & a conspiracy between the OFT & the banks, who were bleeding money

It was undertaken to allow the banks more time to introduce their new charging regime so their inflated profits won't suffer & even if it wasn't that's the effect it's having

Also don't forget the FSA ruling on charges was completely one sided allowing the banks to continue charging whilst denying consumers the right of recovery

[mailmannz]

Oh gees [insert rolling eyes]

IF this was as sham between the OFT and banks there wouldnt have been a court case [insert more rolling eyes]

Next you will be telling me the US Govt was involved in the 9/11 attacks [insert more rolling eyes]

Mailman

[JonCris]

Originally Posted by mailmannz

Oh gees [insert rolling eyes]

IF this was as sham between the OFT and banks there wouldnt have been a court case [insert more rolling eyes]

Next you will be telling me the US Govt was involved in the 9/11 attacks [insert more rolling eyes]

Mailman

I'm not sure if the above is a sarcy response to my suggestion that it's all a sham - I would simply state that there being a court case was/is the best & most obvious way of stopping consumers claiming their money back.

After all prior to this action the banks have had umpteen opportunities to put the matter before a court but have usually backed out at the last moment

As for the OFT they have ages to do the same but have not until requested to by the banks. This case was NOT instigated on the initiative of the OFT but that of the banks & this action so far has only benefited the banks & no other party

[Mr Rhodes]

It's a heated debate and maybe I have become very cynical but it would appear that this case has certainly assisted the banks for quite some time and hindered the average bank customer. This looks like it will continue in this limbo also.

Maybe the OFT is not quite as aggressive or committed as the banks?

I am no expert but Bookworm seems to have a very good grasp of the legalities, whereas I can not help seeing the benefit for the banks and the hinderance for the consumer in this.

Time will tell of course but I feel for the people out there who really do need their money back, and the sooner the better. In some ways we are actually worse off because the court fee is a big outlay and that is in limbo as well as the unlawful bank charges.

Fingers crossed for all of us that this is not a sham and the reult is in our favour.

	Bank Charges You should have started your claim for your bank charges by now. Don't wait. You should send your bank a Subject Acess Request asking for all personal data they hold on you - not just statements. You should calculate all of your bank charges and related interest as far back as 1995. You should send your bank a demand for a refund giving them 7 days. You should commence your legal action adding 8% statutory interest. If you wait for the outcome of the test case, you may not be able to claim like this. you may not be able to claim interest. You may only be offered the difference between the charge and the OFT "fair charge". The repayment scheme will try to limit you to refinds from 2001 only. A repayment scheme will not deal with any bank charges related defaults on the credit register whereas in a court action you can ask for these to be removed and to be compensated for the damage caused to you and your family by them. You should also write to the bank and to the CRA and put all charges related credit entries in disupte and warn them that you will want them removed from the Register when the test case is over. Warn them also that you are likely to be seeking compensation for these wrongful data entries. Full and final settlement Have you previously accepted a partial repayment of your bank charges in full settlement? You will still be able to claim the rest of your money back after the Test case is decided. Get all your information back to 1995 and put in your claim now.

[JonCris]

Originally Posted by Mr Rhodes

It's a heated debate and maybe I have become very cynical but it would appear that this case has certainly assisted the banks for quite some time and hindered the average bank customer. This looks like it will continue in this limbo also.

Maybe the OFT is not quite as aggressive or committed as the banks?

I am no expert but Bookworm seems to have a very good grasp of the legalities, whereas I can not help seeing the benefit for the banks and the hinderance for the consumer in this.

Time will tell of course but I feel for the people out there who really do need their money back, and the sooner the better. In some ways we are actually worse off because the court fee is a big outlay and that is in limbo as well as the unlawful bank charges.

Fingers crossed for all of us that this is not a sham and the reult is in our favour.

IMHO the one GOOD affect of this action which, was not envisaged by the banks, is that now many more victims are so peed off because of the one-sided stay & have consequentially become much more bloody minded that they are more willing to use every means possible fair or foul to avoid paying whether the 'debt' is owed or not & to some smaller degree this must be still having an effect on their collections causing them to be much more drawn out battles thereby increasing costs - one can only hope so

	Bank Charges You should have started your claim for your bank charges by now. Don't wait. You should send your bank a Subject Acess Request asking for all personal data they hold on you - not just statements. You should calculate all of your bank charges and related interest as far back as 1995. You should send your bank a demand for a refund giving them 7 days. You should commence your legal action adding 8% statutory interest. If you wait for the outcome of the test case, you may not be able to claim like this. you may not be able to claim interest. You may only be offered the difference between the charge and the OFT "fair charge". The repayment scheme will try to limit you to refinds from 2001 only. A repayment scheme will not deal with any bank charges related defaults on the credit register whereas in a court action you can ask for these to be removed and to be compensated for the damage caused to you and your family by them. You should also write to the bank and to the CRA and put all charges related credit entries in disupte and warn them that you will want them removed from the Register when the test case is over. Warn them also that you are likely to be seeking compensation for these wrongful data entries. Full and final settlement Have you previously accepted a partial repayment of your bank charges in full settlement? You will still be able to claim the rest of your money back after the Test case is decided. Get all your information back to 1995 and put in your claim now.

[breeze1996]

I've just had an email from Martin at MSE it's his blog and he says it's been confirmed nobody will know the result till JULY.

So another 4 months to wait for everyone.

[JonCris]

breeze ask Martin about his next programme & the credit card companies ploy of using the current stay to avoid repaying their charges