NHS/Social Services - should you pay for care

[bankoff]

Here is a useful link to anyone who finds themselves with an elderly relative having to go into a Nursing/Residential home and being told they have to sell their house to pay for it.

www.NHSCare.info

[queenjayne]

Great link there, thanks.

My mother is currently in hospital after a severe stroke two weeks ago. She is coming up for assessment (of recovery/ability/skills) soon and clearly will not be able to live on her own anymore. This means I am just entering this minefield.

Should I start a thread for this or just take it 'outside'... i.e. follow the link and keep it out of this forum?

Edit: starting own thread for this.

[bankoff]

From my own experience, it may take some time for them to rehabilitate your mother, so you don't have to worry just yet.

It will depend on your circumstances, there are a lot of angles on this. How well your mother does with the rehabilitation etc.

When they get to the point where they are asking you to find her somewhere to go, then be prepared to give them the run around. Don't agree to anything until you know what the implications are.

The are full of sh***t about rehabilitating and sending people home to cope, with their "so called" help with personal care at home.

They expected 1 person to put my mother to bed in 15 minutes, well if you have any experience of Dementia then you know that that is not achievable.

Good luck

[chaos5678]

I look after people in their own homes, working for an agency.

It's not the social services type of daily visit, sometimes we spend all day/night with a person.

From what I see, some people get massive amounts of care paid for and some stuggle with very little help.

The main difference seems to be that those who just say, "Sorry, can't manage" and don't change their story, seem to be the ones with the most help.

So my advice would be to get your local community nurse on side, as they wield a lot of power! and keep asking!

Good Luck

[Columbia]

Originally Posted by bankoff

Here is a useful link to anyone who finds themselves with an elderly relative having to go into a Nursing/Residential home and being told they have to sell their house to pay for it.

www.NHSCare.info

Just a small point here, this does NOT apply to residential care, which is not funded by the NHS. Also, not every person who needs to be in a nursing care home is eligible for fully funded care. In most cases, the nursing element of the care is funded by the NHS, but the board and lodging aspect is means tested to see what level of funding (if any) is needed from Social Services. If someone is self-funding, i.e. if they have savings of over £20,500 and/or a house to sell, then they will fund their own placement, minus the nursing element, until their funds drop to £20,00. At that point, Social Services will fund that part of the placement which is not covered by pension and any other benefits.
Social Services are generally seen as the big bad wolf in situations where someone cannot cope at home any longer and need permanent care, but they don't "force" someone to sell their house and then grab all the money, as a lot of people think.
I would think that the number of people who are able to make a successful claim for reimbursement of all nursing home fees from the NHS will not be as big as the above website would have you believe.
For more information about Continuing Care funding, you may want to have a look around this site. There's a lot of waffle and jargon, but if you dig enough, there is quite a bit in plain English!

[Rob Wills]

Visit my website www.freewebs.com/robjameswills for details and beware.

[bankoff]

Hi Columbia

I have visited the Doh site several times, only to find that the relevant piece of information HS 95 8 has been removed.

I wonder why?

Hi Rob

I have read your story, its awful. This is one of the reasons I wan't to keep my mother out of a Home.

[JonCris]

Originally Posted by Columbia

Just a small point here, this does NOT apply to residential care, which is not funded by the NHS. Also, not every person who needs to be in a nursing care home is eligible for fully funded care. In most cases, the nursing element of the care is funded by the NHS, but the board and lodging aspect is means tested to see what level of funding (if any) is needed from Social Services. If someone is self-funding, i.e. if they have savings of over £20,500 and/or a house to sell, then they will fund their own placement, minus the nursing element, until their funds drop to £20,00. At that point, Social Services will fund that part of the placement which is not covered by pension and any other benefits.
Social Services are generally seen as the big bad wolf in situations where someone cannot cope at home any longer and need permanent care, but they don't "force" someone to sell their house and then grab all the money, as a lot of people think.
I would think that the number of people who are able to make a successful claim for reimbursement of all nursing home fees from the NHS will not be as big as the above website would have you believe.
For more information about Continuing Care funding, you may want to have a look around this site. There's a lot of waffle and jargon, but if you dig enough, there is quite a bit in plain English!

Sorry my wife works in the field of issues involving the elderly & I have to tell you your wrong when you say they "don't force people to sell their property" they DO.
They have over the last few years caused people or their relatives at a very vunerable time in their lives to pay for 'social' care when the person was clearly entitled to 'nursing care'

My wife like many others throughout this country is in the proccess of recovering these unlawful charges which it is estimated amount to over 1 billion pounds. When you say it's not as bad as is claimed my wife alone in the last 6 weeks has recovered over 100k & thats just for 2 of her cleints.
The main reason why there is little being mentioned in the press is that like the banks & after causing their victims to jump through hoops & knowing it's very unlikely that they will have to pay any legal costs to the claimant (the claimant has to pay) they are settling behind the scenes after they have run out of excuses

She has also had cautions, unlawfully (placed by these councils) removed from the properties of these owners. These cautions have been placed without informing the owners only to come to light some years later at the time of either registration or worse still sale & causing the sale to fall through whilst months are spent getting councils to, very reluctantly, act within the law.

In one such case the charges being claimed via caution exceeded the property value by many thousands of pounds

[Rob Wills]

The authorities are the modern equivalent of the Nazi's.

Social Services' departments should be held to account by local MP's and Councillors; but regrettably in some local government areas, Oxfordshire being one, they are not interested.

[JonCris]

Originally Posted by Rob Wills

The authorities are the modern equivalent of the Nazi's.

Social Services' departments should be held to account by local MP's and Councillors; but regrettably in some local government areas, Oxfordshire being one, they are not interested.

I understand that local authorities can claim care home monies from the government equivilent to those sums they expect to collect from individuals at a later date. In other words if they can say we have cautions placed on property for ex amount they get subsidised by central government to that same amount.

Nice little incentive I suspect

[bankoff]

Hi JonChris

Nice to see I have someone on my side who knows about this awful situation. The NHS have called me in to an Assessment panel to decide if my mother is suitable for NHS Continuing care - well I know she is, she does nothing for herself, she needs constant care, and rarely knows who she is or who we are. She is up all night ranting and sleeps all day, she needs intervention when she gets a bit violent with her mood swings.

I am going to this armed with a copy of the HS 95 8 which I managed to get hold of, just in case they decide to bend the rules. Will also be taking someone with me.

Does your wife have any advice to offer. Have had lots of help from Stephen Squires who she probably knows.

[JonCris]

Originally Posted by bankoff

Hi JonChris

Nice to see I have someone on my side who knows about this awful situation. The NHS have called me in to an Assessment panel to decide if my mother is suitable for NHS Continuing care - well I know she is, she does nothing for herself, she needs constant care, and rarely knows who she is or who we are. She is up all night ranting and sleeps all day, she needs intervention when she gets a bit violent with her mood swings.

I am going to this armed with a copy of the HS 95 8 which I managed to get hold of, just in case they decide to bend the rules. Will also be taking someone with me.

Does your wife have any advice to offer. Have had lots of help from Stephen Squires who she probably knows.

Where is Stephen Squires based? The name sounds familar even to me.

She'll be home shortly & I'll ask her to go on line after tea. You do understand that any advice she gives will be "without prejudice as to liabilty"

Be warned I know of one occupant of a care home receiving nursing care who was caused at the behest of the local council & the home to sign a letter/agreement stating that she would pay. This agreement was witnessed by the homes manager & a care assistant. It was discovered 7 days after signing this document she was diagnosed as suffering from advanced acute dementia. Needless to say this person is now under the care of the Court of Protection & there may be a police investigation in the offing

[bankoff]

Thanks for that info.

Stephen Squires is very active on the NHSCareinfo site.

I have POA so they won't get past me.

Did you read RobWills story, really dreadful. Do these people really care or what?

I recently met up with the daughter of a lady in the next bed to my mother and she had gone into a home and had lost half her body weight and was covered in bed sores, they did not have the right equipment for her needs, and they did not bother to help her eat her food. Long, slow and painful death is what they seem to advovate in some places. And they have the cheek to charge upwards of £600 per week.

Well I think the situation that has been uncovered in Cornwall with the mentally handicapped says it all don't you.

[JonCris]

Originally Posted by bankoff

Thanks for that info.

Stephen Squires is very active on the NHSCareinfo site.

I have POA so they won't get past me.

Did you read RobWills story, really dreadful. Do these people really care or what?

I recently met up with the daughter of a lady in the next bed to my mother and she had gone into a home and had lost half her body weight and was covered in bed sores, they did not have the right equipment for her needs, and they did not bother to help her eat her food. Long, slow and painful death is what they seem to advovate in some places. And they have the cheek to charge upwards of £600 per week.

Well I think the situation that has been uncovered in Cornwall with the mentally handicapped says it all don't you.

The abuse & maltreatment of the elderly & mentally handicapped know's no bounds. The so called "caring" industry is riddled with those who abuse the sick & vunerable. I also blame those in the industry who are witness to what happens yet do nothing about it.

I do hope you reported the plight of the elderly patient you mention

[Chimera]

Having worked with social services/in the care industry for some time I know for a fact that you will be very lucky if you don't have to fight for what you are entitled to. Unfortunately, they won't offer it on a plate. You have to clue yourself up on what you need and what you can get, always ask for slightly more than you need, because they wil in most cases reduce it (make it realistic though - or they will dismiss it entirely!), and basically harass them until you get what you want, and I mean harass them.

I would always advise going to visit a few homes, until you find a good one - taking someone who has worked in care will always help, as they will easy spot the dodgy ones! Also, many good homes will help you apply for funds, and help you with the social services bit.

Get as much evidence as possible, keeping diaries is good, of all care needs, incidents etc. If you have evidence to back up why you need the service, and how many hours etc, it will all go in your favour - they will find it difficult to refuse. Unfortunately, it will mean quite a bit of work, keeping those records,but will be worth it. I am a bit clued up on this after having to record evidence for clients to get more care facilities from social services, if you need any help just ask and I will help if I can.

[JonCris]

Originally Posted by bankoff

Hi JonChris

Nice to see I have someone on my side who knows about this awful situation. The NHS have called me in to an Assessment panel to decide if my mother is suitable for NHS Continuing care - well I know she is, she does nothing for herself, she needs constant care, and rarely knows who she is or who we are. She is up all night ranting and sleeps all day, she needs intervention when she gets a bit violent with her mood swings.

I am going to this armed with a copy of the HS 95 8 which I managed to get hold of, just in case they decide to bend the rules. Will also be taking someone with me.

Does your wife have any advice to offer. Have had lots of help from Stephen Squires who she probably knows.

My wife will respond tomorrow but she has mentioned that you might like to think about applying to the Court of Protection to become your mothers guardian. It'll cost about £1,000 in court fees but will safeguard her in that any decisions by others must be approved by you before they can be implimented.

Its not unknown for local authorities to seek guardianship of a mentally incapacited patient if the relatives are proving difficult to handle & you may wish to get in 1st