NHS fees for non-uk citizen.

ffocus · 7th September 2006, 09:26

Hi all,

The problem I have is this. My grandmother came over to the United Kingdom for 2.5 months recently. She is a state pensioner from south africa. About 4 weeks ago she was submitted to the hospital via ambulance since she was not well. My Mother signed on behalf of her for any treatment to take place, since my grandmother was not in a fit state to sign anything.

We did not take out any insurance for her since she is over 80 and we could not find any insurance company that would provide cover.

The hospital has now written to us asking whether or not she is a UK citizen etc. She clearly isn’t. We cannot afford to pay the bills. And we certainly didn’t authorize any of the treatment that she had whilst in hospital. Etc

I trust that this is a sensitive topic since we don't want thousands of foreigners coming over to this country and getting away with free treatment. But I feel in this case there is an exception to be made.

Any comments or thoughts would be appreciated.

Thanks

Bookworm · 7th September 2006, 09:46

Don't take this the wrong way, but why do you think there is an exception to be made? I don't mean that in a "shut up and pay up" way, I really want to know what are the reasons for you saying that?

If we look at the facts as you have given them: She is not a UK (or EEC) resident. She did need treatment, which she got. You don't state what the medical problem was, but seeing the state of the NHS, it is unlikely they would have carried out any procedure/investigation that were not necessary.

I'm sorry, but I really have a problem working out your logic, beyond the "she's 80 and we can't afford to pay", neither is relevant as to a cause for exception to be made.

ffocus · 7th September 2006, 10:27

Hi Bookworm

We meet again...The position I am arguing from is this.

My mother went with my grandmother to the hospitol, upon arrival...My mother had to sign a doc "I will pay for treatment" this was for them to do anything. The concern we have is that the hosiptal did not call us at anytime to ask for permission to carry out further tests or advise how much this was going to cost.

I am gratefull for the service they provided and yes they are very thourough in their jobs as they should be. But in this case it just feels that my mother wrote them a blank check?!?!

andrew1 · 7th September 2006, 10:34

Sounds terrible doesn't it when you are talking about human beings and compassion. We are all the same, just humans trying to make a life for ourselves. But coldly, sadly, taking the personality and what is in the heart out of the equation, Bookworms right.

I wrote to John Reid once for reasons I won't bore you with ( and for which I might get lynched on this forum!

) when he was Health Minister asking why he was allowing Paul Boetengs relative to skip back to Nigeria without paying his NHS bill when he visited. It was all over the paper at the time so I'm not saying anything out of turn. I also asked him how much was unpaid by ' visitors ' for medical treatment. I don't have the letter anymore with the exact figures as I threw it away but I can assure you it was millions.

When I go to France and have to see the Doctor - I have to pay, same in alot of countries.

I know not what the ailment or need to attend hospital was for and whatever treatment was needed I can empathise with you - she's a human being for heavens sake - but when our pensions are being skimmed on people who paid in all their lives thinking they had something when they retired, specialist treatment cut back for uk citizens because of cost, increasing dental charges etc etc, I regret I must agree with Bookworm - it has to be paid for.

In Ireland women were arriving from abroad ( Africa ) on planes who were 8.9 months pregnant, so they could have their baby in Ireland, claim residency and get it all free. Sorry Not on! and I love kids and Africans as it happens but in the hard world one has to survive and our taxes and NI payments take a significant amount of our income.

I think I've said enough - although I hope she gets better.

EDIT: I hadn't seen your last posting before mine appeared under it.

Blank cheque or not - If she was seriously ill and you had a price given to you what would you have said - I can't afford it we'll take her home?

Bookworm · 7th September 2006, 10:49

Ok. I see what you mean.

You may want to query the methodology of the hospital, possibly, but unless you have a doctor who is willing to pore over every single treatment your grandma got and query its necessity, you are going to have a hard time getting anywhere, IMO. And it doesn't answer my question over why you feel your grandma's case justifies an exception?

Blank cheque, hmm.... Say Grandma goes into cardiac arrest in the middle of the night, and you haven't given permission for any unauthorised tx... NOK is nowhere to be found... What does the hospital do?

I used to work in medical repats, and the way some people got treated (or not, as the case may be), depending on whether they had insurance or not, makes you realise that the UK ain't so bad. In the US, in particular, they wouldn't do anything unless you handed a credit card first. A rather quaint interpretation of the hippocratic oath, IMO, but that's another story.

My advice would be to come to a payment arrangement with the hospital, as I really do not think you will get anywhere on that one. Happy to be proven wrong, if anyone knows better. Really.

ffocus · 7th September 2006, 10:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrew1

Blank cheque or not - If she was seriously ill and you had a price given to you what would you have said - I can't afford it we'll take her home?

I see your point.

The thing is after she came out of hospital (she was in there for 2 weeks). She had to go see a doctor to make sure she was on the correct medication. 10min with a doctor to check this cost £40. hourly rate of £196...

£196x8x20 x 12 months = £376k per year for a doctor/consoltant?!?!!?!?

Is the NHS Privetly run or goverment??? Please remind me?? How can they charge these rates.

The thing is...I am worried that they are going to charge us an extorsionate rate...Also when in care the nurses were so busy they couldnt even give her the proper attention she deserved. The doctors were getting ****ed off because the nurses kept forgetting to take her temperture. lol how can they charge rates of £200 per day for this kind of service.

I know this is a touchy subject and understand your points. I myself am a UK citizen and know what we pay on Tax and NI. But its only when you experiance something first hand when you really realise what kind of service companies are providing...

Bookworm · 7th September 2006, 10:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by ffocus

Ihow can they charge rates of £200 per day for this kind of service.

Just for info: Greece or Canary Islands, etc: Outpatient clinic - approx £ 300, Inpatient - starts at £ 500, Intensive Care - Uwards of 1k. US? You don't want to know...

And incidentally, South Africa, OUCH, is all I can say.

ffocus · 7th September 2006, 10:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bookworm

Blank cheque, hmm.... Say Grandma goes into cardiac arrest in the middle of the night, and you haven't given permission for any unauthorised tx... NOK is nowhere to be found... What does the hospital do?

Yes I agree. Any person with a heart would.

The thing is the first 2 days were critical. and fine we are happy to pay for this.

The remainding 12 days that she was there she was fine/stable she wanted to come home. The doctors said she mustnt since she must be monitered for 3 days, then another 3 days , then another 3 days. Who is to say that they arent just doing this to make money themselves? I dont mean to come accross as paranoid. This wasnt critical yet they insisted.....

I coiuld change the name of this thread to "They kidnapped my grandmother and held her for ransom"

ffocus · 7th September 2006, 10:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bookworm

Just for info: Greece or Canary Islands, etc: Outpatient clinic - approx £ 300, Inpatient - starts at £ 500, Intensive Care - Uwards of 1k. US? You don't want to know...

And incidentally, South Africa, OUCH, is all I can say.

:o Ouch...hmm

Im going to write back simply stating that she has returned and is not a uk citizen. Ill let you know what they write back. At least then I will know how much we are talking about

andrew1 · 7th September 2006, 11:01

This is not meant to be disrespctful - but have you ever used a vet? You think writing a blank cheque to the NHS is hard - Vets take the shirt off your back!

ffocus · 7th September 2006, 11:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrew1

This is not meant to be disrespctful - but have you ever used a vet? You think writing a blank cheque to the NHS is hard - Vets take the shirt off your back!

No disrespect taken

I guess anything with a heart beat and an owner/relative is worth something "MONEY MONEY MONEY"
anything with a heart beat without an owner/relative isnt???

Scary stuff

Bookworm · 7th September 2006, 11:06

Please do.

I went to France 19 yrs ago, and promptly ended in ICU with acute viral meningitis. I was in hospital for 5 days, 3 of them in ICU. Lumbar pucture, the works.

Despite the E111, as the French system doesn't operate a blanket policy like the UK, I was left with a percentage to pay. £1000 approx. That was about 10% of my total bill. 19 years ago. But hey, these guys saved my life, so the way I see it, money well spent!

The moral of the story (I didn't just say it to scare you with the costs, I promise!) is ALWAYS ensure you have adequate medical insurance cover (not a dig at you, I know it would be hard and pricey to get Grandma cover, and there'd be a raft of exclusions), if you're going to EEC, PLEASE make sure you get your E111 (no longer called that now, of course) and take it with you!

becka · 7th September 2006, 12:36

Ffocus - I know you said it would have been pricey to have gotten your grandmother insurance but would it have been cheaper than what you now need to pay because she *wasn't* insured?

We all think we can save money by thinking we probably won't need insurance so why bother paying for it but the fact of the matter is that the one time you need it will be the one time you decided to not take it out.

As far as I'm aware your grandmother wouldn't have got the treatment for free in her homeland so why should she get it for free because she was on holiday?

I'm positive that the doctor's did not keep her in to make more money. If she hadn't needed the bed they would have got her out of it as quick as possible. Despite us reading about how the NHS has no money I doubt very much if they feel they can fill the void by keeping overseas visitors in a bed ... especially if the payment hasn't already been received

bankoff · 8th September 2006, 11:49

I have some experience of taking my then 87 year old mother TO South Africa, I had to get insurance for her at a cost of over £800. She had reason to go to a doctor over there before on a previous visit and it cost her as she stayed on for an extra 2 weeks, was bitten by a nasty spider and was not insured. They will charge us when we are over there in SA, so what is wrong with SA citizens paying for treatment when they come over here.

I would have thought it is obvious that it has to be paid. Its difficult enough over here getting what you pay for in NI and taxes, the reason the NHS is so short of money has got to be the sheer numbers of people coming here for treatment, whether it be on purpose or by accident.

Sorry ffocus, but have to agree with the majority on this one, but hope your Gmother is recovered and the bill is not too high.

ffocus · 8th September 2006, 15:21

Fair comment bankoff

Thanks all for posting. Ill let you know what the cost of hospitol treatkment when i get the bill.

Best wishes to all
ffocus

meggyweggy · 9th September 2006, 20:21

Reading this thread has incensed me slightly. Not to sound nasty and yes we all do get ill but saying about the medical staff saying your grandmother had to stay in a few days to be monitored and then another few days, unless you have gone through what they have to get qualified i would accept there decision they would rather have you in there a few more days than is absolutly necassry than rushing you out and something bad happening. If they had sent her on her way after a few days and something had happened (not aimed at you) but how many people would be straight on the phone to there solicitors. I Am goo

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