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Thanks, I will amend my letter.

I have written a letter to BCW Group PLC. I was not aware that Natwest had moved the collection of the "debt" to another company. It will be interesting to see what their reply to my letter will be. I include the letter here for information. client Ref: ****** BCW Ref: ******* BCW Group PLC 11 Elm Court Arden Street Stratford-upon-Avon Warwickshire CV37 6PA Dear Sir/Madam: I have received a letter from Geoffrey Parker Bourne Solicitors requesting that I phone BCW Group PLC within 72 hours with a repayment proposal or they will advise their client to issue a claim through the county court. What connection does BCW Group have with National Westminster Bank PLC? I categorically state here and now that I do not owe this money. The amount stated is made up of excessive, unfair and, I believe, unlawful fees and charges. I look forward to this issue going to court where I shall enter a robust defence. I have stated to Natwest on several occasions that I believe that these excessive fees and charges are unlawful under the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 1(e) Schedule 2: 'Indicative and non-exhaustive list of terms which may be regarded as unfair - 1. Terms which have the object of effect of - (e) requiring any consumer who fails his obligation to pay a disproportionately high sum in compensation'. I also believe that these charges represent a penalty and are therefore irrecoverable at common law. In the Scottish case of Castaneda and Others v. Clydebank Engineering and Shipbuilding Co., Ltd. (1904) 12 SLT 498 the House of Lords held that a contractual party can only recover damages for actual or liquidated losses incurred from a breach of contract. This is also the position in English law: Dunlop Pneumatic Tyre Co Ltd v New Garage and Motor Co Ltd [1915] AC 79. Furthermore, I have on several occasions requested specific information on the amount that Natwest bank has removed from my account in fees and charges from when the account opened until the present time. I have requested this information which I am entitled to under section 7 (1) of the data protection act 1998. The first request was presented to Natwest in writing on 30th January 2006. To date I have not received the information I require. As I have not received the information I require to calculate the exact amount Natwest owes me I can only estimate the amount. I estimate that Natwest owes me approximately £3,000 plus interest at 8% (I am claiming interest under section 69 of the County Courts act 1984). As Natwest claims that I owe them £2,385.20 that still leaves £614.80 that Natwest owes to me. Please note: On all previous correspondence with Natwest bank I have insisted that I am not prepared to discuss this issue over the telephone, all communication between myself and Natwest and their representatives will be carried out in writing. This condition also applies to BCW Group PLC and their representatives. I look forward to your reply. Yours Faithfully

I requested information on fees and charges applied to my account going back 4 years and quoted the data protection act. I didn't enclose a cheque (whats the point, they'd only bounce it and hit me with another charge). I received a big bundle of statements about 2 months later. A few months later I complained that I hadn't received the information I had requested and they sent another bundle of statements that were exactly the same as the first lot. So I will complain again that I have not received the information I requested, lets see if they send me another bundle of statements.

I threatened to report them to the Information comisioners office after I had waited 6 months for the required information (a long time, I know, but I had other pressing issues to attend to at that time). Within a week they had sent all my statements. It has been their usual tactic to send out statements when people ask for information. I want to push it further by gaining the exact information I have requested. Many people on this forum have gained refunds from banks but then the same thing happens again and again and again. The banks are milking their customers for cash and if a customer complains loudly enough and threatens court action then, and only then, do they get a refund. The banks try every stalling technique they know, even threats, to put people off from getting their refund. I have read the horror stories on this forum and I know that many people do not like to complain or are scared of taking on these goliath companies. Some are worried about what the future will hold if they fail. The only way this can be stopped is if the law is invoked in favour of the customers. The only way this can be done is through a court decision on the legality of these fees and charges. How many have tried to take their bank to court? how many have got to court? How many cases have the banks defended? I have decided that i no longer wish to jump through my banks hoops. I don't want my money back. In fact I already worked out how much Natwest have charged me and I have spent it. Now my bank says I owe them money, fine, they want it they can take me to court. Lets get a decision in court. Thats what I want. their threats do not scare me, I don't own a house or a car, i have no worldly goods to speak of. What is the worst they can do to me? turn up and break my legs with baseball bats? no. Their threats of destroying my credit rating or sending in bailifs do not phase me but I understand that for many people this would be a nightmare that they would not want to walk into. That is what the banks count on, that is why they will not lose, so they have to pay back a few million, small change out of the 4 billion plus pounds they're making every year.

Thanks for your reply. I have already got my statements from Natwest but this wasn't the information I requested. They hold on their data base all fees and charges they have applied to my account, it is this information that I requested. Natwests statements are the most difficult to understand that I have come across, add to this fees and charges that have been refunded at different times and it is almost impossible to decypher them. I wrote to Natwest in September 2006 Disagreeing with the amount I owed to them as apposed to how much they owed to me in excessive and unfair fees and charges. Therefore I have moved beyond the stage of sending an SAR. The reason I have made an estimate is precisely because Natwest have not furnished me with the information I require to make an exact calculation of what they have taken from my account. At present I have not added interest or taken into account the excessive interest added by Natwest. Natwest already knows that I have disputed the amount owed and I stated in my last letter that I was prepared to defend my case in court. Surely if the amount is in dispute they cannot call a debt agency in to collect the debt? If they take me to court surely as the defendant it would be I who would need to prove that their figures are wrong (which I can easily do) and it would be up to them to prove their figures are right. As apposed to me taking them to court where the onus would be on me to prove that my figures are correct and for them to prove that my figures are wrong. If they took me to court and I proved that their figures were wrong would they lose the case and have to bring another case against me with revised figures? or could the amount be reduced by the court to a lower figure? Put another way - would it be a sudden death decision where an exact amount needs to be proved (all or nothing)? Or can the judge decide on a figure after hearing evidence? If the second way was true then I would need to have exact figures. But if Natwest needed to prove the exact amount as stated then all I would need to do is prove that their figures are wrong due to unlawful fees and charges applied to my account. Any help on the legal issues I have raised would be much appreciated. I am sick and tired of writing letters and threatening court action everytime they apply these punitive fees and charges. I am now making Natwest jump through my hoops.

I have received a letter from Geoffrey Parker Bourne Solicitors, it may be of interest to other members: Dear Sir/Madam, Re:- National WestminsterBank Amount now due £2358.20 Client Ref ******* BCW Ref ******* We have been instructed by BCW Group plc to write to you concerning your now seriously overdue account with them. Unless you contact our instructing agents BCW Group plc on 0871 244 2800 quoting the above reference number within the next 72 hours with a repayment proposal, we will advise our clients to issue a claim for recovery in the county court. You must note that in this event the sum for which they sue will include solicitors costs, court fees and interest which will add significantly to your debt. We have been specifically requested to point out that should our clients obtain judgment against you this may be registered at both the county court judgments registry and the main credit reference agencies. This could seriously affect your ability to obtain credit in the future for up to six years. Please note that we are instructed not to enter into correspondence with you on this account but to refer it back to BCW Group plc, 11 Elm Court, Arden Street, Stratford-upon-Avon, Warickshire, CV37 6PA. Yours faithfully, Geoffrey Parker Bourne Does anybody know who BCW Group plc are? are they connected with Natwest Bank? I have been writing letters to Natwest for over 12 months and have had some small success in claiming back excessive fees and charges. But i decided that I'd had enough of jumping through Natwest's hoops every time they charged me. Therefore I have estimated how much they owe me in fees and charges and then spent this amount in the hope of putting the ball squarely in their court. If they wish to take me to court they will have to prove that their fees and charges are fair and lawful. I will of course make a counter claim. I did write about my case on the Yahoo forum some time ago but I can do so again on this forum if anyone is interested. I am just in the process of writing another letter to Natwest as I have stated to them in writing over and over again that I am not prepared to discuss this issue over the telephone. I will put a copy of the letter here when it is written.

Thanks for your comments. I must admit I was surprised that the bank caved in so easily, I think that is more to do with pressure being applied from all the other customers who are complaining and groups (like The Bank Action Group) who help to publicise the disgusting way in which banks are behaving. To answer your question:- In my last letter to the bank I requested an exhaustive list of all fees and charges that Natwest had charged to my account over the past 4 years. I stated that I was entitled to this information under section 7 (1) of The Data Protection act 1998. If natwest fails to comply with my request I can make a complaint to the Information Comissioner asking for a "notice of enforcement" to be served on the Data protection officer employed by Natwest. Failure to comply with this notice is a criminal offence. The banking code has not been broken by Natwest. I have read through the code hoping to find something I could use against the bank but this code is too vague and not worth the paper it's written on. I have succeeded in getting £272 refunded but that is only the fees for one month. I now intend to claim all penalty charges for the previous 4 years. To do this I need Natwest to send me the information I requested. Taking my complaint to the banking ombudsman could be a viable option later on but I would still prefer to use the county court route before I take my case to the ombudsman.

I did try to post before but theres no sign of it. I'll try again. Just before Christmas I was unfortunate enough to have a cheque bounced twice by Natwest at a total cost of £76 which was removed from my account immediatley with out even notifying me. This put me overdrawn for which I incurred a further charge of £28. Two further charges of £35 for card misuse followed plus an unpaid direct debit charge of £38. strangely enough Natwest paid a direct debit the next day to Natwest loans and charged me a £60 referral fee. A total of £272. At no time did Natwest contact me, I only found out that the cheque had bounced when the person I gave the cheque to contacted me because they had a letter from their bank. when I went to my local Natwest branch I was informed that I must cancel all direct debits or I would incur further charges. an increase in my overdraft facility was refused but it was noticed that my loan with natwest only had one more payment "perhaps I'd like another loan to cover these charges and maybe pay off a credit card", I declined their offer. I wrote a letter to Natwest Head office, ( actually I used the letter From The Govern Law Centre, to whom I'm eternally grateful) requesting a full refund or I would start legal proceedings. Seven days later I recieved the reply in a very long winded letter which didn't actually answer any points I'd raised. I was offered a 50% refund as a gesture of good will as long as I accepted that I would have to pay all charges in future! They also insisted that all further correspondence must include my day time telephone number. In my reply to Natwest I pointed out that they had not addressed the legality of the penalty and unfair charges applied to my account within the ambit of regulation 5 of the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts regulations 1999. Also I had been further advised that I could claim all charges from when the account opened until the present time, I asked for an exhaustive list of all fees that had been charged for the past 4 years, quoting the data protection act. I refused their gesture of goodwill as I felt the imposed conditions where unlawful in the context of the consumer contracts regulations. Also the 50% refund was unacceptable. I stated that I would start legal proceedings to recover £272+interest+costs. I also requested that no further charges be taken from my account until the court judgment was made. To finish off I pointed out that "I am not prepared to discuss this case over the telephone. All communication between myself and Natwest bank and their representatives will be carried out in writing". Three days later I recieved a short reply "Thank you for your letter dated 30th January, the contents of which are duly noted. After further consideration I have arranged for a full refund of £272 which has credited the account today. I trust the letter now resolves your concern, however, should you remain dissatisfied, referral to the Financial Ombudsman is still an option available to you". If Natwest do not send me full details of all charges applied to my acccount over the past 4 years (within the next 40 days) I will be referring my case not to the Financial Ombudsman but to the Data protection Comissioner. Thanks for all the info on this site, it's been a great help.