.....or as KR died, would the finance have been written off and not repaid by the insurer?

I have a question about the insurance for the car whose ownership is in dispute. It was insured for £37,000 (insurer's valuation) - the car value had increased as it was very specialist. Purchase price: £32,995 KR paid a deposit of £6599.00. KR then borrowed £26,396 + £7604.20 (cost of credit – interest/fees etc) = £34,000.20. He was to pay 59 instalments of £564.92, commencing Jan 2013 - £33,330.28 and a final instalment of £669.92, making the total repaid £34,000.20. The 2 totals balance so that’s correct. KR made 16 or 17 repayments when he died. Let’s say 16 – so he’d repaid £9038.72. That leaves outstanding finance of £24,961.48 at the time he died. The insurer sold the car (for scrap) for £26,000 – so the proceeds of the sale were £1038.52. My question is would the insurer simply pay out the proceeds of the sale ie £26,000 minus outstanding finance of £24,961 - £1038 or the full insured value of the car £37,000 minus the outstanding finance of £24,961 - £12,039 Thanks

Hi. Apologies for the above Q. There's no way anyone would or could answer that.

Ok. Thanks. Do you have any idea, ballpark, what the fee for this should be?

Ah - but before we contact the solicitors again - what is the position with regards to "How can their corporate department value a business, 9 months after the date on which the valuation should be based? LM could have devalued the business or concealed income (although yes, she might have increased the sale)"?

OK. I'll speak to my friend tomorrow and investigate. What a womble you are!

Given that this corporate probate factory has done nothing to date that we can see, is that grounds enough to say we've lost confidence and will look elsewhere?

Hi So, the above email has been sent to the (probate) solicitors, and responded to. Most notably, it caused them to attempt to revise their fee, but my friend had contracted for a "full estate service" at a 1.5% of the estate fee. She challenged this and sent them a copy of the contract she had signed. I can upload a redacted copy if anyone wants me to (tomorrow). My friend responded with: "paralegalX had informed me that the price you had quoted for the full estate administration service for Probate covered all aspects of K's Estate including "dealing with the business". I checked with her twice and clarified both times that the fee (percentage of the estate) would cover all legal advice and dealing with the sale of the café, the sale of the Lotus (it had not at that time been written off), and that this meant I would have no need to speak to LM direct. ParalegalX agreed twice that there would be no extra fees other than conveyancy costs and estate agents costs and that their firm were able to advise on all issues and aspects of the Estate. We also confirmed that the Estate included the fact that K and I had a house, that he had the Lotus car with LM acting as guarantor on the finance, and a 50% share in a business. At no time did paralegalX indicate that there would be any extra costs incurred by liaising with other departments within your organisation. She also confirmed that it would be in your best interests to gather as many assets into the Estate as this had a direct effect on your fees. I, therefore, would expect there to be no extra costs from yourselves, especially as I have managed to provide information on the matter that your corporate department purely need to verify. On appointing a Solicitor I do not expect to spend hours and hours seeking out legal information on your behalf and then to be given a revised fee rate" Friends solicitors replied that "I have passed the relevant documents, including the loan agreement, the sales receipt and the business valuation to our corporate department for their consideration. I can confirm that our corporate team will charge their own fees as distinct from our fees for their advice on dealing with the business. This is because their specialist knowledge is required to work out the value of the business and how much might be due to the estate". The concerns are: 1. That my friend is to be charged an additional fee without that having been made clear in advance 2. Very little (if any) progress has been made in the 9 months since K's death 3. How can their corporate department value a business, 9 months after the date on which the valuation should be based? LM could have devalued the business or concealed income (although yes, she might have increased the vale) How should we reply? It's point 3 that could have the most impact on my friend.

Hi. The loan was definitely repaid by the insurers. The insurers then sold the car and the proceeds were paid to KR's estate. LM (KR's sister) is staking her claim directly to the solicitors doing the probate. My friend cannot say how the loan repayments were actually made, other than confirming they were NOT made from their personal joint account. LM is resisting disclosing any accounts for "The Boutique" (which was named on the loan agreement) even though PR was company secretary, or of "The Café".

Hi all. My friend does have a solicitor (engaged to deal with the probate), but they're being very slow and don't seem to ask the right questions or identify the right issues. Based on the posts, I have drafted this wording that my friend is going to send to them. I thought it was best to keep the issue of the partnership and the car purchase separate. This deals with the partnership arrangement. "" Please may I request that you update me as to progress with the probate of my late husband’s estate and in particular address the concerns that I list below: My late husband was half owner of “The Cafe” with his sister L M. The partnership was dissolved on the death of my husband and therefore, LM is obliged to wind up the partnership. I have sent you documentation that evidences that "The Café" was actually on the market with XXX Commercial Estate Agents at the time of KR's. It had been valued at £99,000, which was the asking price. Whilst LM is obliged to wind up the partnership, she has continued as sole trader in the meantime. She does so at her own risk, though. If the value of the business falls, she must still pay KR's estate what was owed for what the business was worth at date of death £99,000). I do understand that similarly, if the valuation rises, KR's estate doesn't share in the increase in value after death). As you now have evidence of the business value (emailed to you 14/02/17), will you be writing to LM requesting that she pays KR's the 50% (£49,500) value at date of death and making clear to her that this value is fixed and her sole trading after KR's death is at her own risk? If it is not your intention to write to her in this regard, then I would like to know why not. LM has to wind up the partnership in a "reasonable" timeframe”. KR died 9 months ago. Reasonable is one of those words that can mean many things ; it will depend on each individual set of circumstances, and (for example), continuing to trade while concluding an existing contract, would likely be held to be reasonable. They didn't have any contractual delivery or HR contracts however and I can see no reasonable reason why this is being delayed. Please could you let me know what you consider to be a reasonable time frame? In summary, please confirm to me that you will be writing to LM as outlined above, provide me with a written update as to probate progress and indicate to me what a “reasonable time frame” is with respect to LM paying KR's estate what is owed. "" Just getting to the point where we're able to write that is a big step forward in trying to move things on. I'm sure they're very au fait with the law (you'd hope so!) but a couple of things they've done have been a little questionable. The intention in emailing them is to have them ascertain the legal position and compel LM to settle her dues, which, in 9 months, they have been able to do. I have every confidence in what you've told us, so I wouldn't expect the solicitors to challenge any of the statement's made. If there are inaccuracies or wrong assumptions, then I'm sure they'll put my friend straight. Thanks again.

Hi. This is all very, very helpful and I'm beginning to understand the situation. I've asked my friend for more explanation of who actually made the loan repayments and how (ie from which bank accounts). I do know that KR was the registered keeper of the vehicle. Can't thank you all enough!

Apologies. All docs attached in 1 scan now Docs 1-5.pdf

Hi all. I have uploaded all the documents I have. As this is getting confusing - and a key bit of information has come to light about K's business interests - this is a "timeline" below Time line and key documents - Business interests and purchase of car Abbreviations PR: My friend – widow of KR KR: Deceased. Ex husband of PR CB: Sister of KR (& LM) who sold her ½ of business (Café) to KR LM: Sister of KR (& CB) who was co-director of “the boutique ltd” with KR. Also partner of KR in “the café”. Prior to May 2011: CB and KR went into business together (c18 years ago) to run a café. In 2011, KR & his sister LM formed a Ltd company to run a Boutique. In 2011 KR also paid another sister (CB) £30K for her ½ ownership of “The Café”. KR and LM ran both businesses concurrently. The limited company was solely concerned with the boutique and was not in any way involved in the business of the café. Doc ref: 1 XX/05/2011 KR and his wife, PR, agreed to pay CB £30k for ½ stake in the Café. Document 1 shows down payment of £10k made in May 2011 (unsigned copy – signed copy likely to be at Café premises. Possibly signed at a Solicitor’s office -trying to find out!) No document. Evidenced at Companies House 02/06/2011 KR & LM incorporated a new ltd company (I’ll refer to it as “the boutique ltd” – both listed as Directors with equal shares (1). Widow of K is listed as the Company Secretary. This was formed to run a fashion business, unrelated to the café. They ran it together in leasehold premises. Doc ref: 2 01/08/2011 KR paid £20k balance towards stake in Café. (unsigned copy – signed copy likely to be at Café premises. Possibly signed at a Solicitor’s office -trying to find out!) 30/06/2012 Last accounts submitted to Companies House by “The Boutique Ltd” Doc ref: 3 12/11/2012 Inv 4927 from UK Sports Cars, purchaser Close Motor Finance Doc ref: 4 18/11/2012 Unreferenced inv from UK Sports Cars, purchaser KR (same car). We have emailed the dealer to find out what purpose this document served. No reply (yet). Doc ref: 5 XX/XX/2012 Loan agreement for the finance for purchase of Lotus. Names on this agreement are “The Boutique Ltd” and the signatures of both KR and LM (but not stating position as company directors). 02/06/2013 Last return sent by “The Boutique Ltd” to Companies House 14/10/2014 “The Boutique Ltd” involuntarily dissolved. When “the Boutique” closed it had a few debts which are now paid off. LM had 90% of the stock to sell on Ebay and PR believes the business debts were settled with this money. The company accountant for “The Boutique Ltd” informally told PR that it was wound up with no assets. This would indicate that despite the company being named on the car loan agreement, the purchase was not a company car. It wasn’t intended to be – the car was a performance sports car with no roof! LM is refusing to disclose these accounts. As stated before, LM is not out of pocket in any way as a result of guaranteeing the loan for K's car, yet she is asserting that she was co-owner and therefore owed 1/2 of the proceeds of the sale. Doc 3.pdf Doc 5.pdf Doc 1.pdf Doc 4.pdf Doc 2.pdf

Thanks all. I will get the info you're asking for and upload a redacted loan agreement and sales invoice tomorrow. Your efforts are much appreciated

Further to earlier posts - please note I (the OP) am NOT the widow of K. No matter though. In a nutshell, after more info received...this is the current situation with regards to the car. Car purchased in November 2012 for £36K. Deposit of £6.9k paid in cash. K sold wife's car to raise this. Sales invoice states Close Motor Finance as owner and car delivered to K and he is logged as the registered keeper. Finance agreement was with Close Motor Finance. 1st customer was K, 2nd was the sister. K did not believe his credit score would allow him the finance, so his sister agreed to be guarantor. K made the monthly repayments from his company drawings. What hasn't yet been mentioned here (this is a complex situation) is that K died whilst driving the car, causing it to crash. the insurance immediately kicked in and the finance was repaid. The car had actually increased in value to £37K and when sold, the balance was paid to the solicitors doing the probate. The sister never paid anything to the loan and is not out of pocket in any way. Despite this, she is asserting to the probate solicitors that as she is named on the finance agreement, that she is owed half of the sale proceeds. My friend believes that the car belonged to K and that L has no entitlement to any proceeds of the car sale. This issue has nothing to do with the sisters generosity (of spirit) in helping her brother purchase his dream car. My friend has been massively impacted financially by K's death and is having to fight to survive. It's not beyond the realms of possibility that she could ultimately lose her home. While the probate solicitors will eventually sort this out, it could take months and the stress of uncertainty is making my friend ill. Establishing legal ownership of the car would go a long way to easing that. I can upload the sales invoice and loan agreement (redacted) if it helps but this will now have to be tomorrow. Many thanks, again, all.