Hi Tingy. Just to clarify, I paid the £165 fine direct to the court via the automatic payment line on the 21st March. This went through and was debited from my account as normal. On the 28th March I received a letter from Philips saying I owed £245 and needed to pay in full to stop any further action. I contacted the court to get them to call the bailiff off and the court said they were going to refund the fine and I should pay Philips £245 quickly to avoid further costs. The court refunded the £165 on the 28th April. Thanks Doug

Hi Leakie, Thanks for your post. I paid the fine before I received any communication from the Bailiff, not because of it. D

Hi I did not receive the Further Steps Notice and paid as soon as I had the money and the court accepted the payment. I believed that was the end of the matter. Nearly 8 days later I received the Bailiffs letter. I contacted the court for them to confirm receipt of payment and they refunded the money.

Sorry, I didn't know there was a link to another forum in my message. I had posted on another site to try and get a speedy answer, a case of two heads better than one!. I apologise if this causes offence, it was not intended. The original advice was given on this site regarding the postage, "Section 7 of the Interpretation Act service": 1. Interpretation Act 1978, Section 7 This states:- "7. Where an Act authorises or requires any document to be served by post (whether the expression "serve" or the expressions "give" or "send" or any other expression is used) then, unless the contrary intention appears, the service is deemed to be effected by properly addressing, pre-paying and posting a letter containing the document and, unless the contrary is proved, to have effected at the time at which the letter would be delivered in the ordinary course of post." 2. Practice Direction Service of Documents - First and Second Class Mail "With effect from 16 April 1985 the Practice Direction issued on 30 July 1968 is hereby revoked and the following is substituted therefore. 1. Under S7 of the Interpretation Act 1978 service by post is deemed to have been effected, unless the contrary has been proved, at the time when the letter would be delivered in the ordinary course of post. 2. To avoid uncertainty as to the date of service it will be taken (subject to proof to the contrary) that delivery in the ordinary course of post was effected:- (a) in the case of first class mail, on the second working day after posting; (b) in the case of second class mail, on the fourth working day after posting. "Working days" are Monday to Friday, excluding any band holiday. 3. Affidavits of service shall state whether the document was dispatched by first or second class mail. If this information is omitted it will be assumed that second class mail was used. 4. This direction is subject to the special provisions of RSC Order 10, rule 1(3) relating to the service of originating process. As stated in my original post (From advice given on this forum) in accordance with Section 7 of the Interpretation Act service by post is "deemed to have been effected, unless the contrary has been proved" in the case of FIRST CLASS MAIL, on the 2nd working day after posting and in the case of SECOND CLASS MAIL, on the 4th working day after posting (working days are Monday to Friday, excluding any bank holiday.). Furthermore, under Part 9 (Schedule 5) (Section 40) of the Courts Act 2003, it provides that you have "10 working days" in which to appeal the Further Steps Notice. The FSN also states upon it that you must pay "within 10 working days". Therefore, as confirmed by yourself/ The court, a letter was sent on 1st March and IF sent by First Class post was "deemed" served on me on 4th March. A further 10 "working days" MUST be allowed for either payment to be received or an appeal made. This would therefore give me until 17th March. The VERY EARLIEST that the court could possibly issue a Distress Warrant was therefore, Friday, 18th March. The court "apparently" issued the Distress Warrant on 16th March and clearly, this was TOO EARLY. If you count the 'working' days on a calender you will see this is correct and in effect I think means that the distress warrant was not valid, had no legal basis and was not in force. Meaning the fine I had paid on the 21st should never have been refunded by the court as no distress warrant was legally in force or deemed to be in force: Good afternoon Mr ------ Miss ------- has passed your e mail on to me for a response as you have requested. You appeared at the City of Westminster Magistrates Court on the 28th January 2011, where you were convicted and ordered to pay a total of £165.00. The Court ordered you to pay £100 forthwith, and the full amount was to be paid by the 28th February 2011. Our records show that no payments were received by this date. A reminder (further steps notice) was posted to you on the 1st March 2011. (I did not recieve the further steps notice) We still didn’t receive any payments at this stage, and a distress warrant (Bailiffs Warrant) was issued on the 16th March 2011. You paid £165 via the National Payment Line on the 21st March 2011, four days after the account had been referred to Philips Bailiffs for enforcement. Once we have instructed Bailiffs to take on the enforcement of the account, we are unable to accept any full or part payments. ( paid the fine before any letters from the Baliff (1st letter from Philips was on 28th March - I still have the DATED letter) Payments made via the National Payment Line are automatically downloaded on to accounts. If a distress warrant is in force, the payment will automatically be paid in to our suspense account and returned to you. Your payment of £165 was paid back in to your bank account today. I’m sorry Mr -----, but you did not pay your account within the time limits ordered by the Court. Your payment was late, and there are no grounds for me to recall the distress warrant. We are unable to accept any payments from you. You should contact Philips immediately to prevent any further fees being applied. Yours sincerely Mrs ------ Administration Officer Central Accounting Office I hope this clarifies some points? All comment very welcome, was/is the distress warrant valid please? Thanks D

Hi All, To Recap I received a fine and duly paid it then I was contacted by Baliffs seeking the money. I informed them I had already paid it but they said I had paid it (to the court) too late (I paid it by the automatic payment line and it was accepted. The court then 3 weeks later REFUNDED the money!. During this period I had been presenting the following argument. Their reply received today (3 weeks later) follows. Thanks for your email and the copy of the warrant. The copy of the distress warrants confirms that is was issued on the 16th March. This is too early as detailed below: "I was given until close of business on Monday 28th Feb to make payment and yet, even allowing for admin time etc, a Further Steps Notice was sent the following day; Tuesday 1st March according to your email. A period to allow for posting must be given and in accordance with Section 7 of the Interpretation Act service by post is "deemed to have been effected, unless the contrary has been proved" in the case of FIRST CLASS MAIL, on the 2nd working day after posting and in the case of SECOND CLASS MAIL, on the 4th working day after posting (working days are Monday to Friday, excluding any bank holiday.). Furthermore, under Part 9 (Schedule 5) (Section 40) of the Courts Act 2003, it provides that you have "10 working days" in which to appeal the Further Steps Notice. The FSN also states upon it that you must pay "within 10 working days". Therefore, as confirmed by yourself/ The court, a letter was sent on 1st March and IF sent by First Class post was "deemed" served on me on 4th March. A further 10 "working days" MUST be allowed for either payment to be received or an appeal made. This would therefore give me until 17th March. The VERY EARLIEST that the court could possibly issue a Distress Warrant was therefore, Friday, 18th March. The court issued the Distress Warrant on 16th March and clearly, this was TOO EARLY." The Court's Reply: "Mr xxxx I sought some guidance from one of our legal advisers and after looking at the legislation that you refer to, has provided this response: I have had a look at the legislation to which Mr Lyon is referring. Paragraph 37 of Schedule 5 is given below: "37[F32(1)This paragraph applies if—(a)P is in default on a collection order,(b)paragraph 26 does not apply, and©none of the following is pending—(i)an application under paragraph 31(1) (application to fines officer for variation and reserve terms),(ii)an appeal under paragraph 32(1) (appeal against decision of fines officer),(iii)a reference under paragraph 42 (power of fines officer to refer case to magistrates' court).F33. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .](6)The fines officer must—(a)refer P’s case to the magistrates' court, or(b)deliver to P a notice (a “further steps notice”) that he intends to take one or more of the steps listed in paragraph 38.(7)Any steps that the fines officer intends to take must be specified in the notice.(8)A further steps notice must be in writing and dated.(9)P may, within 10 working days from the date of the further steps notice, appeal to the magistrates' court against it." You will see that it says that the notice must be dated and that there are ten working days from the date of the notice (not from the date it was received) to appeal the notice. I also give paragraph 40 of Schedule 5 (to which Mr xxx has already referred you to): "40If—(a)P does not appeal within 10 working days against a further steps notice, or(b)he does so but the further steps notice is confirmed or varied,any step specified in the notice (or the notice as varied) may be taken" I acknowledge the fact that my interpretation of this is clearly different to yours, but the legislation (highlighted above) states that an individual has 10 working days from the date of the Further Steps Notice to appeal and in your case this would mean that the Distress Warrant legitimately could have been produced from the 15th March to conform to the legislation and it was actually produced on 16th March. There is no reference made in the Courts Act legislation to the provision of additional time being given for postage and therefore, I do not believe that there is a requirement to include any additional days, to the 10 working days stated in paragraph 37 of schedule 5. Therefore, I have to conclude, after seeking legal advice, that the warrant was indeed issued in accordance with the timescales laid down in the legislation. The distress warrant has currently had a hold placed upon it, pending the outcome of this complaint and I will be asking for that hold to be removed to allow Phillips to pursue payment on the warrant. I appreciate that this is not the outcome that you were seeking and therefore, if you wish to escalate this matter further you must contact the following team, based at our headquarters. Customer Service Team 102 Petty France 1st Floor, Zone C London SW1H 9AJ xxxxxxx Manager" Can anyone please advise What I should do? Many thanks Doug

Hi, I have asked the court for a coy of the Distress they say was issued and which I have been advised is my right. (Please see my other thread for details). I have been waiting a number of weeks to no avail. I'd be grateful for any guidance as to what I should do next. Please see below the communication so far (Most recent first): On 21/04/2011 09:16, "Bxxxxxe" wrote: M xxxxx I have asked the enforcement team to visit their old office site to locate the warrant, but I have no news yet. I have emailed again and await their reply. I am also on leave until 3rd May and will chase again if I have not heard anything Apologies for the continued delay Manager From: Me Sent: 20 April 2011 15:06 Hi xxxx, Any news on the copy of the distress warrant please and also my complaint? Please note I am holiday from tomorrow so please copy a reply to my personal email address as well please. Thanks On 18/04/2011 13:53, "xxxxxxx" wrote: Mr xxx I am still trying to get hold of a copy. This whole process has been made a little more difficult as all of our Area Enforcement Offices moved into a central location on 11th April and retrieval is taking a little longer than anticipated. I have chased the team up again today. Thanks xxxxxxx From: Me Sent: 18 April 2011 13:10 To: Bradshaw, Julie Subject: Re: xxxxxx79 (CG) Hi xxxxx Hope you had a good weekend. I was wondering if you had managed to get a copy of the distress warrant and also considered my complaint please? Many thanks xxxxxx On 14/04/2011 15:22, "xxxxxxx" wrote: Mr XXXX Mrs Cook is on annual leave at the moment and I am also in communication with our enforcement colleagues, who are trying to locate the warrant for us. I will chase them again tomorrow morning and will give you an update as soon as I can Thanks XXXXX From: Me Sent: 14 April 2011 14:43 To: XXX Dear Mrs XXX, Just to let you know the money was refunded today into my account today. Can you give me an update regarding my complaint and the copy of the distress warrant please. Many thanks Me On 13/04/2011 11:52, xxxxx> wrote: Thank you for your reply Mr XXXX I have asked our Enforcement Team to provide me with a copy of your Distress Warrant and shall contact you as soon as it has been received. Can you please confirm that the statement you have sent is the same bank account you used to make your payment to us with? As requested, I have cc’d my line manager in to our exchange and made her aware of your complaint. Regards XXXXX

Thanks, P, I've started adding to the original post now to keep it in one place.

The court has today refunded my fine of £165 (17 (working) days since I paid it. I am now faced with the fine being outstanding with Philips. Does anybody have any ideas what I should do? Should I pay them, (it would be difficult to find the extra money at this moment.) Or should I wait and see what the outcome of my complaint is? (Will this attract further charges to my account by philips?) Below is the latest exchange with the court (With thanks to TT for outlining what should be written!): From: "C---------> Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 11:52:30 +0100 To:---------> Cc: "---------> Subject: RE: ---------- (CG) Thank you for your reply Mr -------- I have asked our Enforcement Team to provide me with a copy of your Distress Warrant and shall contact you as soon as it has been received. Can you please confirm that the statement you have sent is the same bank account you used to make your payment to us with? As requested, I have cc’d my line manager in to our exchange and made her aware of your complaint. Regards P------- From: ------] Sent: 13 April 2011 11:02 To: ------- Subject: Re: ----------9 (G8) Good morning -------- You state that a Further Steps Notice was sent to me on 1st March and as I had failed to pay. You also state that a Distress Warrant was issued on the 16th March which you have so far been unable to provide evidence or proof of. Firstly, I am very surprised at the date of this letter because I was given until close of business on Monday 28th Feb to make payment and yet, even allowing for admin time etc, a Further Steps Notice was sent the following day; Tuesday 1st March according to your email. A period to allow for posting must be given and in accordance with Section 7 of the Interpretation Act service by post is "deemed to have been effected, unless the contrary has been proved" in the case of FIRST CLASS MAIL, on the 2nd working day after posting and in the case of SECOND CLASS MAIL, on the 4th working day after posting (working days are Monday to Friday, excluding any bank holiday.). Furthermore, under Part 9 (Schedule 5) (Section 40) of the Courts Act 2003, it provides that you have "10 working days" in which to appeal the Further Steps Notice. The FSN also states upon it that you must pay "within 10 working days". Therefore, as confirmed by yourself/ The court, a letter was sent on 1st March and IF sent by First Class post was "deemed" served on me on 4th March. A further 10 "working days" MUST be allowed for either payment to be received or an appeal made. This would therefore give me until 17th March. The VERY EARLIEST that the court could possibly issue a Distress Warrant was therefore, Friday, 18th March. The court "apparently" issued the Distress Warrant on 16th March and clearly, this was TOO EARLY. Furthermore, no refund has appeared in my account and I have attached a screenshot of my bank statement. Please provide a copy of the Distress warrant which is my right to see by return email please. Please also provide a breakdown of the fees Philips are allowed to add to the account. I will be seeking legal advice in relation to the above and will be making an official complaint to the Court Manager today. I would appreciate a copy of the distress warrant by return please. Kind regards

Many thanks PLodderton!, I should have looked harder. Have you any advice on my other thread please, not sure how to point you to it? Thanks

Can anyone please let me know what Philips Baliff's are allowed to charge for sending out a letter? I have posted a previous thread and would be grateful for any further help. I was fined £165, paid it, Court plans to refund the payment which was made and accepted by the cout on the 21st March saying that a Distress warrant was issued (But not recieved) on the 16th March. Philips demand ins for £240, £75 for one letter, is that right and allowed? Thanks in advance

Thanks Tomtubby, sorry for all the questions. Should I pay the baliff's the money (presently £240) if the court does refund the fine (£165) while I await the outcome of the complaint. What should be the basis of the complaint please, early sending of the next steps or refunding the payment or something else? The baliff's fees appear to be £75 is this right for one letter? Thanks again Best regards

Thanks for the reply and the information. I'd be very grateful on any thoughts as to what I should do next? Many thanks!

Just to add this has been the email exchange to date Good afternoon Mr ------ Miss ------- has passed your e mail on to me for a response as you have requested. You appeared at the City of Westminster Magistrates Court on the 28th January 2011, where you were convicted and ordered to pay a total of £165.00. The Court ordered you to pay £100 forthwith, and the full amount was to be paid by the 28th February 2011. Our records show that no payments were received by this date. A reminder (further steps notice) was posted to you on the 1st March 2011. We still didn’t receive any payments at this stage, and a distress warrant (Bailiffs Warrant) was issued on the 16th March 2011. You paid £165 via the National Payment Line on the 21st March 2011, four days after the account had been referred to Philips Bailiffs for enforcement. Once we have instructed Bailiffs to take on the enforcement of the account, we are unable to accept any full or part payments. Payments made via the National Payment Line are automatically downloaded on to accounts. If a distress warrant is in force, the payment will automatically be paid in to our suspense account and returned to you. Your payment of £165 was paid back in to your bank account today. I’m sorry Mr -----, but you did not pay your account within the time limits ordered by the Court. Your payment was late, and there are no grounds for me to recall the distress warrant. We are unable to accept any payments from you. You should contact Philips immediately to prevent any further fees being applied. Yours sincerely Mrs ------ Fines Officer CAO-London ------ From: ------- Sent: 07 April 2011 13:49 To: GL-CAO.Correspond Subject: Re: ---------9 (G8) Good afternoon, The problem is the court has already accepted the payment, I am not trying to pay the court now. Can you advise me of the complaints procedure and contact number / email of a manager I can escalate this to as I feel we are going round in circles. Thank you ------ On 07/04/2011 13:11, "-------- wrote: Good Afternoon, Please be advised that once a Distress Warrant is issued we are unable to accept any payments as fee’s are imposed by Philips Recovery Agency, as I stated in the previous email our records show that payment was not made until the 21st March 2011, whereas the Warrant was issued on the 16th March 2011. Please be advised that the onus is on you to ensure all payments are made on time and in accordance to the arrangement set up, if you fail to comply with this further enforcement action is taken as you have been advised in previous correspondence sent to you by the Court (Further Steps Notice). I must now advise that you contact Philips as soon as possible in order to prevent any further fee’s being imposed. Kind regards, -------- Administration Officer Central Accounting Office From:-------] Sent: 06 April 2011 15:23 To: GL-CAO.Correspond Subject: Re: ------ ----9 (G8) Dear ------, Thanks for your reply. If the use of Bailiffs is to collect fines due to the court, how can it be right or fair that you are refunding a fine that is already paid in good time (you have no proof otherwise) to in effect just boost the profits of the Bailiff's and delay payment to the court? Please let me know your complaints procedure as previously asked for. I’d like to draw your attention to the following : EXPLANATORY MEMORANDUM TO THE COLLECTION OF FINES (FINAL SCHEME) ORDER 2006 2006 No.1737 7.2.1 Fine enforcement should be an administrative process, and should not take up the time of magistrates. 7.2.2 There should be every opportunity for the offender to co-operate and to pay the fine promptly, but persistent offenders should not be able to play the system. 7.2.3 Help should be available for those who are genuinely struggling to pay. and: SPECIFICATION FOR PRIVATE ENFORCEMENT PROVISION Distress Warrant - Warrant of Distress issued for the purpose of levying a sum adjudged to be paid by a conviction or order of magistrates’ court : Successful Execution : A warrant is deemed to be successfully executed when: Part or Full payment with or without levy of goods (The fine was already paid before a Distress warrant was received/issued.) Also please see: 6.31 The Contractor shall not take any action to levy distress without prior reference to the court if the Defaulter: • Is in hospital or nursing home; • Appears to suffer from severe physical or any mental disability; • Is an elderly person who has difficulty dealing with his/her affairs; • Is suffering long term sickness, serious or acute illness or frailty, which has resulted in a recent period of hospitalisation or defaulter being housebound and can provide evidence of sickness for the period in default. • Has suffered a recent bereavement of close/immediate family member • Is heavily pregnant • Has a genuine communication problem. • Produces evidence to show the account has been paid • Claims to have made a statutory declaration, thereby setting aside the convictio I find it very surprising your view on this matter. The fine has been paid which you acknowledge and your proposed action of refunding the payment so it remains outstanding to simply financially benefit the Bailiff's is shocking and against your own guidelines. I’d appreciate your confirmation that this is the end of the matter and you will withdraw with immediate effect the Distress Warrant from Philips. Kind regards ------ On 06/04/2011 13:31, "GL-CAO.Correspond" wrote: Good Afternoon, Please be advised that the Distress Warrant was issued on the 16th March 2011 and payment was made on the 21st March 2011, unfortunately we are unable to produce proof regarding this. The refund will be processed within the next 14 days and this office will be unable to accept any payment made, please contact Philips in order to make your payment. Kind regards, ------ Administration Officer Central Accounting Office From: ------ Sent: 06 April 2011 11:48 To: GL-CAO.Correspond Subject: Re: --------9 (G8) Dear sir/Madam. The payment was made to and accepted by the court. I received a distress warrant letter AFTER the fine was paid, not before. I feel it is grossly unfair to plan to refund the money that you have already accepted and leave me to deal with the harassment and extra cost of the bailiff's you employ. I have already paid the fine and you have accepted the money, that should be the end of the matter. Can you please show evidence that payment was made after the distress warrant was issued as the baliff’s letter has no date on it and surely a distress warrant can only be properly served when it is received by the person and If it was after this point why did the court accept the payment? Please can you also provide details of your complaints procedure as I think this completely unfair. Kind regards ------ On 06/04/2011 11:31, "GL-CAO.Correspond" wrote: Dear Sir/Madam, Your payment of £165.00 that you had made on 21st March 2011 will be refunded back to you as you had made the payment after the Distress Warrant was issued on your account. You must now contact the Bailiffs to arrange payment. Their details are as follows* Philips (850) PO Box 231 Darlington DL3 7AN Tel: 0844 800 4588 Regards, Central Accounting Office HMCS London From: -----] Sent: 05 April 2011 12:40 To: GL-CAO.Correspond Subject: ----9 (G8) Dear Sir/Madam, I received a fine from HMCS South East & Central London Court. I paid the fine (£165 - See attached) but I am being chased by Philips Bailiff and Debt agents for £240 in relation to the same matter. I have written to them, sent them evidence of payment (which they said would be the end of the matter) but have received another letter from them (attached). I called them to find out why and they said that the they were still pursuing the matter. I do not understand why. I have paid the fine and that should be the end of the matter. This is really worrying me and I would be very grateful if you could help to resolve this and get them to stop sending letters. Many thanks

I was fined on 28th January 2011 for having an expired licence - fine £165. I paid this in full by the automatic payment line on the 21st March 2011. On the 28th March I received a letter from Philips Baliff's stating the fine had not been paid and I needed to pay £240 immediately. I called them and explained that the fine had already been paid. They asked me to send in proof and that would be the end of the matter. I emailed them my bank statement on the 29th March 2011 and heard nothing more. On the 2 April I received another letter from Philips repeating the demand for £240 as a result of an unpaid fine, I called again and explained i'd sent proof it was paid. The lady said she had received that but they were still pursuing the matter as it was paid too late and a distress warrant was in place and the court would be refunding the money I had paid. I spoke to the court (Westminster magistrates court) (and put in writing) That I was being harassed for a fine I'd already paid and they said the fine had been paid late and there was nothing they could do, the fine would be refunded and advised I should pay Philips straight away to avoid further costs. I emailed my response saying the court had accepted payment and the distresss warrant was received AFTER I had paid it and that it was unfair that the court was planning to refund the fine to in effect provide profits for a private contractor. I asked for this matter be referred to a senior manager at the court and she wrote back saying a distress warrant was issued on the 16th March (but could provide no proof) and the fine was paid on the 21st March. She said it would be refunded to my account today (8 April 2011) as of today no refund is there (12 April). I think this is all totally unfair and plain wrong, I really hope someone can help please?