mcuth v Lloyds TSB - FINISHED

[mcuth]

Data Protection Act letter sent 25/04/06 for:
2 x loan a/c
1 x current a/c
1 x credit card a/c

Will split threads accordingly when Data Protection Act details received

They have until 5th June to reply - bring it on!

Cheers

Michael

[jamesdryan]

by the looks of it you're going to be quite a busy guy when all these statements come winging their way in!

Good luck and keep everyone posted!

[mcuth]

Originally Posted by jamesdryan

by the looks of it you're going to be quite a busy guy when all these statements come winging their way in!

Well, ya know, gotta have something to do - if only work wouldn't get in the way

Good luck and keep everyone posted!

Thanks - will do

Cheers

Michael

[mcuth]

Statements received for the loan & current accounts - nothing on the credit card yet. I feel a little reminder letter coming on....

Cheers

Michael

[mcuth]

No need for the reminder letter, copy statements arrived today

Hmm, so with all this paper around, I know what I'll be doing while I recover from my knee operation next week

Cheers

Michael

[breadline]

Hi Mcuth.
I found i highlighted each charge on the provided sheets of paper, but now in hindsight i think its best to actually make fresh list of the charge /date and amount.

As with Abbey any bank could start asking for the break down of charges.

Vamps interest sreadsheet is brilliant for this, It would have saved me alot of time if i had done it from my intial checking.

just an ideal that may help,


BL

[mcuth]

Totted up the charges:

Current a/c = £194
Credit card = £75

+ the Data Protection Act request fee = £279

Cheers

Michael

[mcuth]

Prelim letter sent today by RM Special Delivery:

Lloyds TSB Bank PLC
Customer Care
125 Colmore Row
Birmingham
B3 3SF

By Royal Mail Special Delivery

Dear Sir/Madam

CURRENT ACCOUNT NUMBER XXXXXXX (Sort Code XX-XX-XX)
CREDIT CARD ACCOUNT NUMBER XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

REQUEST FOR REFUND OF CHARGES

My request
I am writing to ask you to refund the charges which you have levied from my account since inception. I now understand that the regime of fees which you have applied to my account in relation to direct debit/standing order refusal, over limit, late payment and so forth are unlawful at Common Law, Statute and recent consumer regulations. If you say that they are not, then will you please demonstrate this by letting me have a full breakdown of the costs to which you have been put by as a result of my breaches, in order to reassure me that your penalties really do reflect your costs.


I am of the view that your charges represent a penalty and are therefore unrecoverable at Common Law. In the Scottish case of Castaneda and Others v. Clydebank Engineering and Shipbuilding Co., Ltd. (1904) 12 SLT 498; the House of Lords held that a contractual party can only recover damages for actual or liquidated losses incurred from a breach of contract. This is also the position in English law: Wilson v Love [1896]; Dunlop Pneumatic Tyre Co Ltd v New Garage and Motor Co Ltd [1915] AC 79; Ford Motor Co v Armstrong [1915]; Bridge v Campbell Discount Co. Ltd [1962]; Murray v Leisureplay [2004].

Your charges do not reflect any actual loss; instead they appear to represent a lucrative profit-making scheme. In
particular, charges were applied after I entered into transactions without sufficient funds in my account and also when I have gone overdrawn without authorisation. The actual loss is the cost of automatically sending me a computer generated letter. I would respectfully submit that is valued at no more than 50 pence.

UK banks have recently given evidence to the House of Commons Treasury Committee on how bank charges are
calculated: "The costs are going to pay for all the people we have who pursue debt, collect debt, speak to customers and chase payments. The way these charges are arrived at is by taking these total costs and making some assumptions about the volume that is going to come through to arrive at the individual charges" (2nd report, 25 January 2005, paragraph 50).

Accordingly, the charges applied to my account are not a reasonable pre-estimate of your loss in relation to my account. No-one has had to look at my account or telephone me. No one has had to collect anything. Your
charges would appear to represent a device to recover global losses (for example, loan defaulters, bad debt write off, including commercial lending in, and outwith, the UK).

On a separate note, your charges appear to represent an unfair term of contract which is contrary to the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 (SI. 1999/2083). My account falls within the scope of Regulation 5 of the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 as I am a consumer. Your charges constitute an unfair
penalty under reference to paragraph 1(e) of schedule 2 of the said regulations:


‘Indicative and non-exhaustive list of terms which may be regarded as unfair - 1. Terms which have the
object of effect of - (e) requiring any consumer who fails his obligation to pay a disproportionately high
sum in compensation’.

0n 26 July 2005, the OFT stated that 'a charge is likely to be disproportionately high if it is more than a court would
be likely to award if the lender sued the cardholder for breach of contract'. Because your charges include a large
profit margin, in addition to actual loss, they are unrecoverable as an unfair term in contract. I believe that your charges require me to pay a disproportionately high sum in compensation for incurring transactions which were
ultimately declined by an automated computer system. In addition, it is unfair to require me to subsidise your global debt recovery costs and debt write-off.

It has now been confirmed that your particularly high level of penalties are considered to be unfair per se by the OFT who reported on the 5th April 2006 and are therefore presumed to be unlawful in the absence of specific proof to the contrary..

Your responsibilities
I would draw your attention to the terms of the contract which you agreed to at the time that I opened my account. It is an implied term of that contract that you would conduct yourselves lawfully and in a manner which complies with UK law.

I am frankly shocked that you have operated my account in this way as I had always reposed confidence in your integrity and expertise as my fiduciary. I consider that your repeated representations that your charges are fair and reasonable are deceptive and that they have deceived me into agreeing to pay them. Your concealment of the true nature of your charges has prevented me from asserting my right until now

What I require
I calculate that, as at today’s date, you have taken a nett total of £269.00. As advised in my Data Protection Act request, I am also reclaiming the statutory £10.00 DPA fee. This makes a total of £279.00. I request that you refund this amount in full and enclose a schedule of the charges which I am claiming with this letter.

Targets to resolve this matter
I hope that you will enter into a sincere dialogue with me about this matter and write on the assumption that you will prefer to do this rather than merely respond with standard letters and leaflets.

You have 10 working days, from receipt of this letter (i.e. by Wednesday 5th July 2006), to reply unconditionally accepting my request in principle and letting me know a date by which I will receive payment.

If you do not respond, or do not respond positively, within this time period, I shall send you a further letter before action allowing a further 10 working days in which to reflect. I believe that these targets are more than sufficient for a large company such as yours with dedicated staff and departments.
After that will be no further communication from myself and I shall issue a claim at the expiry of the second deadline.

I look forward to hearing from you by return.

Yours faithfully,

Cheers

Michael

[mcuth]

Received a reply from the "Customer Service Recovery Centre" today:

5th July 2006

Dear {mcuth}

Thank you for getting in touch with us. I am sorry you are unhappy over your account charges.

Like any business, we do make a charge for some of our extra services. When a customer doesn't have enough in their account to cover a payment, this always means additional work. We must either make the payment for you via an overdraft or send the payment request back. Either way, it has to happen speedily. We feel it's only fair to charge for the extra work involved.

Of course, it is only fair, too, that we're completely open about any charged-for services before you take them up. That's why we take care to provide every new customer with the latest guide to our charges. You can also get up-to-date details about fees and borrowing rates at all our branches, via our helpline and on our website.

Just as importantly, we do everything we can to help our customers avoid charges altogether.

I'm sure you'll know how easy it is to keep a running check on how much is in your account. You're free to get an up-to-date balance at any of our cash machines, over the phone, online and nowadays even by text to your mobile.

If you know a payment is going to take you over the limit, you're welcome to see if we can raise your limit - and we can usually give you an answer straightaway. You might know, too, that we don't usually charge fees if it's the first day in 12 months that you've gone overdrawn without agreeing it with us beforehand. And we never charge an overdraft excess fee more than three times in any one month, however many times you go over your limit.

You've mentioned the new guidelines from the Office of Fair Trading on credit card default charges. We don't agree with the OFT's thinking on this and we're still talking it through with them. But the important point is that the guidelines only concern "default" charges. The fees we charge for going over an overdraft limit and for returned payments are not any kind of default penalty. They are fixed standard prices for the service we provide in these situations. So according to our legal experts, the OFT's guidelines on credit card default charges do not in any way apply.

I do hope you can see that we make our charging system as fair as possible - and why I cannot agree to cancel your charges. I have arranged for a cheque to be sent to you to cover the £10 Data Protection Act fee.

Our Card Services department will respond to you regarding the credit card charges that you have incurred.

In case you haven't recieved a copy of our leaflet called "How to voice your concerns" I've enclosed one with my letter. This tells you all you need to know about resolving your complaint with us.

If you're still unhappy, please don't hesitate to tell me what more you would like me to do. If we cannot agree a solution at that point, I can help you refer your complaint to the Financial Ombudsman Service for independent review.

So long as you feel I've dealt satisfactorily with the points you raised with us, there's no need for you to reply. If I have not heard back from you by 30 August 2006, I will take it that matters are resolved between us - though of course I'll be happy to hear from you should you come back at any point afterwards.

Yours sincerely

Ms Musarat Siddique
Customer Service Officer

How &^%*ing patronising is that?

Boo-hoo, poor Lloyds - I feel soooo sorry for them with all the extra work that they have to do performing these "extra services" (no, services, not penalties) that I so obviously requested

Again, roll on next Thursday and they can have their LBA

Cheers

Michael

[marlow]

Hmm, exactly the same bull I just received. You'd think the silly gits would realise when seeing our letters being all similar that we are from the same source and that we WON'T be backing down. Why do they waste even more time money trying?

[adamski]

I bet loads of peeps back out at each and every stage for all sorts of reasons i would imagine its worth their while just for 20% of peeps to back out, i have suggested this site to loads of friends and they have all said it looks to complicated and worrying, im sure the banks are well aware of this and this is why they continue wouldn't you? they have a lot to lose if everyone took them to court they would lose billions its damage limitation excercise thats all, well that show i see it anyway.
Regards
adamski

[mcuth]

LBA sent today:

Thursday, 13th July, 2006

Ms Musarat Siddique
Customer Service Officer
Customer Service Recovery Centre
Lloyds TSB Bank PLC
125 Colmore Row
Birmingham
B3 3SF

By Royal Mail Special Delivery

Dear Ms Siddique

CURRENT ACCOUNT NUMBER XXXXXXXX (Sort Code XX-XX-XX)
CREDIT CARD ACCOUNT NUMBER XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Your ref: XXXX/XX/XX/XXXXXX

REQUEST FOR REFUND OF CHARGES – LETTER BEFORE ACTION

Further to my letter of 28th June and your reply of 5th July 2006, I am again writing to ask you to refund the charges which you have levied from my account since inception. I now understand that the regime of “fees” which you have been applying to my account in relation to “over limit”/late payments/direct debit/standing order refusals, unauthorised overdrafts and so forth are unlawful at Common Law, Statute and recent Consumer regulations. My letter of 28th June explains this in detail – and I contend that these fees are penalties, not “charges for extra services” as you’re keen to imply.

I would draw your attention to the terms of the contract which you agreed to at the time that I opened my account. It is an implied term of that contract that you would conduct yourselves lawfully and in a manner which complies with UK law.

I note that you have put in a request to refund the £10 Data Protection Act fee, however this has not been received yet – therefore I calculate that as at today’s date, you have taken a nett total of £279.00. I require repayment of this amount in full and have enclosed a schedule of the charges that I am reclaiming. I would also contend that as these monies are unlawfully charged, payment should be made directly to me rather than being credited to the accounts.

If you do not fully comply within 10 working days of receipt of this letter (i.e. by Friday 28th July 2006), I shall begin a claim against you for the full amount (plus interest, plus my costs) without further notice.


I look forward to hearing from you by return.

Yours sincerely,

{mcuth}

Cheers

Michael

[mcuth]

Received a cheque for £10 in today's post - that'll be the Data Protection Act request refund then...

Cheers

Michael

[Cmdenny]

Keep fighting - I've done a moneyclaim, and lloyds are procrastinating through the courts system.

[robert and carol morgan]

just to let you guys know we to received the self same letter from ms siddique on the 3rd july then sent lba letter on the 10th july recieved reply to that on the 14th july saying sorry but no refund next step monyclaim form . juat as an after thought ref credit card late pay fees sent my june statements back to all 3 of mine requesting reviews on late pay charge

capital one reply "it is we who make the rules not the oft so no refund please pay bill asap"

morgan stanly account credited to the tune of £276.40p

tsb no rply as yet (theres a suprise)
keep the faith people