The issues raised by Llloyds bank defences and claiming beyond 6 yrs

[BARTY]

Originally Posted by iwant my money back

hello,i got all my statements off the internet has i do online banking worked all my figures out ie,without interest and with interest using the online calculator, sent my request asking for charges to be repaid, recieved a letter from lloyds on the 13th day stating sorry to hear about my complaint!it wasm't a complaint it was a request. they needed 4-8 weeks to investigate.(don't think so) on the 14th day i wrote again telling them my intentions was to take them to court if i didn't get response within 14 days, today 23rd april 2007 the 14 days are up what is my next step????????? please help

Hi
If you have send both the Prelim and Letter Before Action it is now Court claim time. If you start up a thread of your own, you can ask any questions on there.
good luck!
Barty

[Pen]

Hi Pm,
Am sorry I am really no good at all this legal stuff, but I am very interested in what you are saying. my hearing in June is a disposal Hearing in the small claims track. I think at that hearing I am not allowed to give any oral evidence but if I was to write something it would have to be served on Lloyd's 3 days before the hearing. Right, so how would I go about claiming damagers if they have destroyed my data.

would I have to 1) wait until the court hearing, find out for sure that my data has been destroyed
2) then make a separate claim through the courts for a "separate distinct action,"
3) or do I write something to Lloyd's 3 days before the hearing citing as you say " that they failure to provide (or destruction) of the data, has prevented you from taking your rightful actions to recover what they unlawfully took" then use this as evidence in court.

I just don't know what is the best way to go about this, like you said if they do fail to supply me with all my data, then I have lost out big time. and I would hate that with Lloyd's as they are a dreadful bank and it's our money the took.

But, if there is something in Law which means I have no chance of winning against then should i just save my energy, attend court in June and except what the judge says and his award no matter how small it is.

this is a bit more complected then just claiming bank chargers, but like bank chargers if I though I stood a good chance of getting any of my money back pre 6 yrs then I would go for it. I just don't know if I do have a good chance. thats the problem.

What do others think. If one person can win this against the banks then I am sure it would open the floodgates for all the other members who could not get there Subject Access Request or statements post 6 yrs so if i can not do it because the banks will not provide me with the details, how will I and others like me reclaim what is rightfully ours in the first place.

Thanks for your help PM. I wish Bankfodder would post and tell us what we are suppose to do when all else fails.

A single finding against Lloyds will definitively remove the limitation period. we need a bit more if we are going to do this.


Pen

It would help if we could get evidence from other users who have received more than 6 years. no such luck yet though.

Still waiting to hear back from WhatMoney? who got statements from Lloyds back to '97.

[Pen]

Bong, do we need it, if the Law states that the banks should not destroy DPI. the fact they they have writtern stating they have done it, is that not enough to prove consealment and couild we not all sue them for post 6 yrs without statements because of this. I read my loan agreement the other day and a section under Your Personal Data and Lloyds TSB states.

"If you ask we will tell you what information we hold about you and provide a copy in line with the Data Protection Act ( A fee is Payable)" it does not say within a 6 yr period

Lloyds have failed to do this and it is writtern down in all of their terms and conditions if they do not comply with what they have writtern on the contracts does that make them nul & viod.

I don't know about you lot but all this has given me a head ach, so I am going to stand down for a while.

Good Luck everyone. I will keep you posted on what happends in court.

Pen



Pen

[Determined damsel]

I am in the same situation. Have followed the instructions for setting out my original letter, with dates of charges for the past 5 years (I have kept paper statements for 3 and have gone on-line to search internet bank link for additional 2) and have added interest. I have also received the same letter that you refer to above, from LLoyds TSB. I found it confusing that they referred to credit card charges, when I don't own a credit card. Will be trying to find the next steps amongst the information on this web site.
Keep in touch and hopefully we can achieve some success.

Pen, I'm not the expert on this Data Protection Act stuff but I think the situation is that there is no law about how long companies have to keep records. I think most companies (not talking of banks here) retain them for six for no other reason than the fact that they believe if a claim has not arisen against them after six years it is statute barred and they are pretty safe to destroy the records.

where there has been deliberate concealment and unlawful practices however, and they have destroyed data older than 6 years, my own feeling (not based on any legal knowledge) is that there is a case for showing that with "reasonable diligence" they could have anticipated claims and the destruction of data should lead to them being liable to pay damages - based on estimates calculated on later years of charges, and using known charging information pertaining to those periods.

I'm not saying it would be a safe claim to make though, it is ground that hasn't been tested yet, as far as I know.

[arrogantvenus]

Hello everyone...after much dilly dallying I calculated my charges with lloyds £1445 its ridiculous, I have sent off the letter requesting a payback on the 9th of april and they sent me a letter dated the 19th april telling me the "charges were to cover extra work" and "customers are informed" blah blah blah; and the lousy people sent me another today dated 16th of april giving me a complaint number.

[meagain]

Originally Posted by bong

Pen, I'm not the expert on this Data Protection Act stuff but I think the situation is that there is no law about how long companies have to keep records. I think most companies (not talking of banks here) retain them for six for no other reason than the fact that they believe if a claim has not arisen against them after six years it is statute barred and they are pretty safe to destroy the records.

As far as I am aware, it is a legal requirement that information on individual financial transactions is retained for a minimum of 6 years.

where there has been deliberate concealment and unlawful practices however, and they have destroyed data older than 6 years

If the information has been destroyed as a matter of course, there is no concealment. There is no real reason for them to retain the information beyond the 6 years required by law. Concealment of evidence only really comes into play if they have not destroyed the data, yet refuse to provide it on request.

[elsinore]

[quote=meagain;762952]As far as I am aware, it is a legal requirement that information on individual financial transactions is retained for a minimum of 6 years.
quote]

I posted this some time ago on another thread

The most widely accepted reference for commercial document retention is The ICSA Guide to Document Retention published by the Institute of Chartered Secretaries and Administrators. I imagine that this publication should be taking up space in the bookcase of any Data Protection Manager worth his salt.. It costs £30 :o Anyone got a copy?

Below is an extract from a typical guideline for agreements.

Document retention guidelines
Document
Period of Retention
Comments
Agreements and related correspondence

Major agreements of historical significance
Permanently

Contracts with customers,
suppliers or agents
Licensing agreements
Rental/hire purchase agreements
Indemnities and guarantees
Other agreements/contracts
Six years after expiry or termination of the contract
Six years is generally the time limit within which proceedings founded on a contract may be brought[2]
If the contract is executed as a deed, the limitation period is twelve years
Actions for latent damage may be brought up to fifteen years after the damage occurs

[2] Section 5 Limitation Act 1980.

But, as Glenn says, there seems to be no evidence of legislation (other than Companies Act and Data Protection Act).

Custom and Practise in a specific industry will dictate.

Interesting though that, in this example, the Limitation Act is cited as the reason for retention.

Els

[meagain]

I hold no envy of anyone who has had to pick through all 1300 sections (plus appendices) of the Companies Act to establish that. :o

[Pen]

Ok, slept on this last night and came to the conclushion that since i have just had all my court fees refunded due to not having to pay them in the first place, I should just go for the kill so to speak and try to make this claime someone is going to have to do it at some point otherwise we will never know. but before I send my prelim letter what is the most it would cost me if i lost in chargers by the other side.

I have not added interest to the above amount i could go for the 8% or all the way for the CI either way the bank is going to defend the case somehow i think just the 8% the ci would bring it in to the 60k ball park in not more but that would be one to get our teeth into.

anyone any ideas on how much i would stand to lose if i lost. I did read a case relating to a mortage where the bloke had to pay £5,000 plus, in solicitors fees.

Pen

Originally Posted by bong

where there has been deliberate concealment and unlawful practices however, and they have destroyed data older than 6 years, my own feeling (not based on any legal knowledge) is that there is a case for showing that with "reasonable diligence" they could have anticipated claims and the destruction of data should lead to them being liable to pay damages

Originally Posted by meagain

If the information has been destroyed as a matter of course, there is no concealment. There is no real reason for them to retain the information beyond the 6 years required by law. Concealment of evidence only really comes into play if they have not destroyed the data, yet refuse to provide it on request.

when I spoke of concealment I meant their concealment of the facts i.e. that the charges levied are not a reflection of their true costs - not concealment as in the destruction of records.

Pen,

I think if you're going to proceed with an estimated claim you should do some homework first to find out what Lloyds were charging customers throughout the period in question. It is unlikely that they were charging £30 25 years ago. Even if Lloyds don't keep customer statements for that length of time I feel sure they would be able to provide old charge tarriffs.

Also I wouldn't recommend claiming something that your income at the time would not have supported - unless you were forced into taking out loans to manage debts consisting of charges. I'm sure if the figures are feasible and based on research such as this, that you will be able to provide in your evidence bundle, you will stand a much better chance of succeeding.

Just a few ideas.

[photoman]

Pen
if you go down the route as suggested by Bong, and want an idea of what charges were in years past, I actually have lloyds Bank statements going right back to 1984, and can check on them what the charges were in whatever year for you.

[Pen]

Hi Bong,

yes I so agree with you, something like this is not worth doing lightly, I am going to first wait for the hearing on the 23rd June to see what Lloyd's have to say about it, you never know they may be able find my documents so then it will not be a problem. and i can go ahead and start an new claim with all the evidence. I think thats the sensible way forward.

What I don't understand is this blumming disposal hearing. Why can I not say to the judge that because Lloyd's refuse to supply me with my information I am out of pocket by a x amount then the judge awards accordingly instead of the marginal amount they do award in these type of cases.

wouldn't it be nice to get a judge who is themselves reclaiming bank chargers. are these judger's magistrates.

[Pen]

Hi,
I have just had a very nice conversation with Janet Ayres Data Subject access Unit. 0845 0701247. I wrote to he last week giving her a further 7 days to supply my data before filing for judgment, (my hubby posted the judgment to the court without realizing what I had done) Anyway Janet is a really nice person and apologized that she was unable to get anymore of my information. she informed me that it was not because they do not have it but that the relevant departments will not release it to he to send to me, (strange) She then apologized for not replying to my letter dated the 15th February asking who had given the order to destroy my files, when the order was made and how where my files destroyed and a copy of the documents showing that they are in fact destroyed, i had totally forgotten this letter, she informed me that she only go it herself yesterday from a different department, it had been signed and stamped that it needed to go to her but they sat on it for a while, she informed me she did not know the reason why they have unlikely just giving it to her.(very Strange) we talked about the retention period of six yrs and why Janet informed me that they keep all statements for a minimum of six yrs and some documents a lot longer.

This beggars belief, they have my documents but will not authorize there release and are totally refusing to allow a staff member to send them to me, could i not call this lady as a witness, she did seem ever so nice and Feb up on the phone, she told me she has since moved from the data collection department, i gathered this is a job no one likes very much. the other person in that department is called Caroline. another question I raised with her is that if they do have statements longer then 6 yrs why are the customer not receiving them, she informed me that in most of the letter she had received for Subject Access Request the customers only requested the last six yrs statements, but mine are not being released to her so she is unable to send them to me.

Can the banks do this, I f I could call on Janet to be a witness she would probably loss her job could not do that. this is totally unfair. I do think this is all down to when i lost my job through illness and they offered by H/O and myself consolidation loans, i felt something was dodgy at the time and i still think something untoward happed which should not have and thats why they do not want me to have them

How can I tell ail this to the court when I am not allowed to give any oral evidence. They are going to get away with it yet again.

Pen

[ULTRA691]

Hi new to site i worked out my charges at £5107 with interest over last 5 years with LloydsTSB done the letters ,where do i send to my branch or head office cheers .ultra691

Originally Posted by Pen

How can I tell ail this to the court when I am not allowed to give any oral evidence. They are going to get away with it yet again.

Pen

Pen, what do you mean you can't give oral evidence? can you submit a witness statement instead?

[elsinore]

Bong, I think this might be what Pen is referring to (from CPR26)

12.4 Disposal hearings
(1) A disposal hearing is a hearing ---
(a) which will not normally last longer than 30 minutes, and
(b) at which the court will not normally hear oral evidence.
(2) At a disposal hearing the court may ---
(a) decide the amount payable under or in consequence of the relevant order and give judgment for that amount; or
(b) give directions as to the future conduct of the proceedings.
(3) If the claim has been allocated to the small claims track, or the court decides at the disposal hearing to allocate it to that track, the court may treat the disposal hearing as a final hearing in accordance with Part 27.
(4) Rule 32.6 applies to evidence at a disposal hearing unless the court directs otherwise.
(5) Except where the claim has been allocated to the small claims track, the court will not exercise its power under sub-paragraph (2)(a) unless any written evidence on which the claimant relies has been served on the defendant at least 3 days before the disposal hearing.

Els

thanks els. Seems like a witness statement would be the way to do it then.