The issues raised by Llloyds bank defences and claiming beyond 6 yrs

[mumof4by1996]

Hi BANKFODDER, I have just read your lloyds defences article and was fascinated as I have a letter from them using that strategy, unfortunately i think i only started going overdrawn after startig work, but what the hell, i have written back asking for all my bankstatements today. This article was exciting , informative, a huge boost in my confidence where reclaiming was concerned. I only hope thousands more people read it and feel the same way. I have one question though, and this came to after reading another thread about other banks using this strategy, is that when they refute your claim at the second letter do ypu think that they are likely tp respond quicker and more positively if you tell them that they are concealing? as well as going to small claims.?

[Pen]

Hi MUMof4, sorry I am not bankfodder but just read your post:: I honestly think the only way the banks will respond any quicker is if the courts where to fine the banks the total cost of each and every hearing for each case they had no intention of defending. Each case must cost thousands of pounds in tax payers money which could be put to much better use. it's a diabolical waste of public funds. Which needs to be addressed. Why won't the Judger's do this do the banks have some sort of hold over them. There must be some reason

Pen

[julesh]

Barty thanks very much. I will set off a new thread. Can I just add what a great idea this website is!!!! Thanks again.

[olympic1805]

Hi Bankfodder, i am thinking of starting a claim against Lloyds on my business accout, quick estimate that it could be anything between £10k upwards, am i right in applying for all charges as far back as when business acount started (9 years) as no 6 year limitation with Lloyds ?

[meagain]

Originally Posted by Pen

[...] I honestly think the only way the banks will respond any quicker is if the courts where to fine the banks the total cost of each and every hearing for each case they had no intention of defending. [...]

This is called "wasted costs", and the courts can issue a "wasted costs order" in certain circumstances. IANAL but I get the suspicion that being on the small claims track may rule out such an order (ICBW). In general, though, they are generally awarded against solicitors who have continued with an action contrary to the best interests of their clients. It could be argued that the banks' solicitors are well aware that they can only win by default (i.e. if you fail to turn up to the hearing), and therefore they are wasting both their clients' and the courts' time and money.

[Pen]

Sorry if someone has already asked this question but How far back can you claime, I thought the limit was 10 years for some unknown reason

Pen

[meagain]

By the looks of things, as long as you like, but you have less than 6 years from now to get them all.

[mumof4by1996]

Originally Posted by Pen

Sorry if someone has already asked this question but How far back can you claime, I thought the limit was 10 years for some unknown reason

Pen

Hi Pen Iread somewhere i think it was here on CAG that the limit you can claim for is 12 years.

[photoman]

Originally Posted by mumof4by1996

Hi Pen Iread somewhere i think it was here on CAG that the limit you can claim for is 12 years.

There is NO time limit at all in cases of concealment or mistake.
You can claim back to as far as you can prove charges were taken, by citing sec 32 of Limitations act. ie; as far back as you have or can obtain statements.
You do however only have 6 years from the discovery of the concealment or mistake in which to lodge a claim ie 2012 if take OFT report in MaY 06 as the date that you claim you became aware of the concealment.
This of course applies to English law. I know nothing of Scottish law other than it is slightly different.

[Pen]

Hi Meagain, Gary, PM and anyone else who wants to contribute for that matter.

Meagain, after being awarded judgment for none compliance against Lloyd's, which demonstrates I have done everything in my power to get my bank statements post and pre 6 yrs. I have done what you suggested. in relation to estimating my chargers. I have took the balance of the last 5 yr chargers £6,800 and divided them by 5 to get an annual figure of £1,360 I have times this by 20 yrs, (although I have been with the bank for near on 30) so as to be totally sure. this figure comes to £27,200 as a estimated cost of unlawful chargers on our joint account only over the past 25 years, 20yrs -the 5yrs which I am claiming in court. So in view of doing everything i can to get my Subject Access Request information and the bank not complying do you think i could possibly stand any chance of winning against the bank for this estimation of costs of unlawful chargers.

Bearing in mind the banks have informed me in a letter that they have not retained any information on our joint account post 6 yrs. So even if the judge orders them to comply if they have not got them as they say they will be unable to comply with the court. If they do have them great I can go for the whole 25 yrs, 30yrs-5yrs I am claiming which will bring the unlawful chargers debit from our account even higher. But if as they say they do not have them how would they be able to defend the case, they could not say the chargers where not debited as they will have no information to prove whether they where or not. I on the other had have 5 yrs of statement's proving the average annual chargers that have been unlawfully debited.

Would anyone else consider this course of action if they where in my shoes. I would be worried I could get hit with a whole of related costs if I lost as the case would need to be heard in the multi tract.

Also I have not added interest to the figure of £27, 200. so the end amount would be a huge amount, not got as far as working that one out, if any one would like to try using CI please feel welcome, I am not that good at maths.

Would your all mind giving me your honest opinion of what you would do in my position. as I am seriously considering this action if I do not get my statements from the bank, even if the courts have demanded there return. if the have destoyed them then theres nothing a court can do to get them back

I look forward with interest to your honest replies so please give me some.

thanks

Pen

	Subject Access Request A Subject Access Request is a demand which you can make to any organisation to disclose any personal information which they hold on you. The right to disclosure of data is provided by the Data Protection Act. There is no time limit. The organisation is obliged to reveal everything they have about you - which you ask for - as far back as you ask for. There are very few exceptions. It does not matter whether the data is held on microfiche, in an archive, on tape, in a cardex system, in sound recordings or in screen notes. Some companies are saying that they do not have to disclose where it would be difficult to do so - "disproportionate effort". This is untrue. Disproportionate effort refers to something else under the Act. If you are seeking bank charges information then you should ask for "all data held on you" and you should make it clear that you want everything as far back as it goes. Do not be put off by excuses. Do not accept being fobbed off. It is not in your bank's interest to make full disclosure to you. This means that it is in your interests to get it. If you have not started gathering your bank charges information yet, then you should start now. There will soon be a big rush once the OFT test case has been settled. Get all of your bank account informtion as far back as possible. At least as far back as 1995. If your bank says that they don't keep data as far back as this, don't accept it. Be persistent. They've got what you need in some form or other.

	Are you letting your bank keep your money Are you giving away thousands of pounds?? Many people aren't claiming all of the money they are entitled to when they make their bank charges claims. You have been forced to pay unfair bank charges. Have you forgotten that your bank has charged you inteest on those charges? If you are overdrawn and the bank owes you charges - then your overdraft is made up of charges - money which you bank owes you. Yet you are paying interest to the bank - on your own money!!! Follow this link to see the discussions on this. You might even double th size of your claim.

[photoman]

Pen,
IMHO, I'm sorry to say that I think you don't have much of a case?

Just as they cannot prove that the charges were not taken, then equally so you have no actual evidence that they actually were.... other than circumstantial evidence or speculation.
Such a case would go fast track, so what would you then provide when the court orders disclosure, and asks for your bundle of evidence ?
Perhaps you may be able to get evidence by reverse? Anyone that you can recall having problems paying? Utilities companies, Mortgage co or a landlord, Student loans co, Credit Card direct debits, anything ??
Other than that, I would suggest you just keep on at the Data Controller, and now use the courts for as much info as you can get.

[Pen]

Hmmmm, it is sad good points raised PM, but (there's that but again). as meagain has pointed out some members have managed to estimate their chargers and this can only be done without the evidance of bank statements to support it. otherwise I have know idea what members are talking about when the estimate the chargers. Has anyone ever reclaimed their chargers on a estimation ?

Meagain, do you know of any members who have reclaimed the chargers using your estermation theroy.

Oh how I dislike this Bank. I am sure thats why they won't return all our data, it really is in their interests to plead destroying it.

nice thought whilst it lasted.

Pen,

[mumof4by1996]

Interesting poits made, but when i asked lloyds for my 6 yers statements they only sent me 5.5years and at the bottom of the page they said that if i wanted any pre sept 2001 i could reply in the prepaid envelope and they would order them for me howevedr i sent this letter back requesting the rest of my statements, and am awaiting reply ,will keep you posted as to what happens , because if they send me pre 6 years it shoots their letter into pieces and then it can be said that they are unreliable and are again concealing.

[mumof4by1996]

Has anyone actually won a case against lloyds, using the concealment argument, and had the limitations removed from them yet?

[photoman]

Originally Posted by mumof4by1996

Has anyone actually won a case against lloyds, using the concealment argument, and had the limitations removed from them yet?

Not lloyds, but a 13 year claim.
I'm sure there are lloyds cases also, look in the lloyds successes forum.

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk...-interest.html

Pm

[meagain]

Originally Posted by photoman

Just as they cannot prove that the charges were not taken, then equally so you have no actual evidence that they actually were.... other than circumstantial evidence or speculation.

Lloyds are lying if they say they don't hold info beyond 6 years, since we know for a fact that they do (by virtue of many other cases - I personally have received statements from 1999). There is actual evidence, it's just that the bank is refusing to provide it. If this is made clear in the particulars of claim, it reinforces the "concealment" WRT Limitations Act and also puts the bank in the frame for obstruction, which shifts the burden of evidence squarely onto them. It's the same principle as overdraft interest - you can't accurately calculate how much interest you have paid in excess, so you put forward your best guess, and it's then for the bank to provide a better figure. In this case, the bank knows how much is has taken from you for some period over the 6 years, and is refusing to tell you, therefore you took your best guess and it is strictly for the bank to cough up the actual figure.

Of course, at £27k you are looking at multi-track. Getting it on the small claims track is not going to happen, but since the points of law you are arguing are simple you can always try asking them nicely to drop it down to fast track. You're also looking at fees of well over £250. This is something which needs some careful thought (this area is something which needs coverage in the Library).

In summary, my thoughts are that lack of evidence may be a problem, but evidence being deliberately withheld is certainly not.

	Are you letting your bank keep your money Are you giving away thousands of pounds?? Many people aren't claiming all of the money they are entitled to when they make their bank charges claims. You have been forced to pay unfair bank charges. Have you forgotten that your bank has charged you inteest on those charges? If you are overdrawn and the bank owes you charges - then your overdraft is made up of charges - money which you bank owes you. Yet you are paying interest to the bank - on your own money!!! Follow this link to see the discussions on this. You might even double th size of your claim.

[photoman]

I agree with all that Lloyds are almost certainly withholding evidence in the form of statements etc, but short of actually walking into their data vaults with an Information Commissioner Officer and a team of Baillifs, it is very difficult to get them to actually hand all this over.
IMHO, an estimated claim is very difficult as there is a burden of proof upon the claimant to provide substance to the claim, especially once an exchange of evidence is requested by the court.
It would probably not even get this far though, as the Banks would request from the outset, that the estimated portion of any claim be dismissed, and it would be very difficult to counter this.
I think pushing for Data Protection Act Subject Access Request compliance through the courts, and seeking damages for non compliance is possibly the only route. Damages would be at the courts discretion, but one could request that the court consider the fact that the Banks willful destruction or retention of such data has prevented you from exercising your rights to reclaim money they have unlawfully taken.

	What are your rights at work Follow this link to read the review of the Guide to your Rights at work, published by Lawpack

	Subject Access Request A Subject Access Request is a demand which you can make to any organisation to disclose any personal information which they hold on you. The right to disclosure of data is provided by the Data Protection Act. There is no time limit. The organisation is obliged to reveal everything they have about you - which you ask for - as far back as you ask for. There are very few exceptions. It does not matter whether the data is held on microfiche, in an archive, on tape, in a cardex system, in sound recordings or in screen notes. Some companies are saying that they do not have to disclose where it would be difficult to do so - "disproportionate effort". This is untrue. Disproportionate effort refers to something else under the Act. If you are seeking bank charges information then you should ask for "all data held on you" and you should make it clear that you want everything as far back as it goes. Do not be put off by excuses. Do not accept being fobbed off. It is not in your bank's interest to make full disclosure to you. This means that it is in your interests to get it. If you have not started gathering your bank charges information yet, then you should start now. There will soon be a big rush once the OFT test case has been settled. Get all of your bank account informtion as far back as possible. At least as far back as 1995. If your bank says that they don't keep data as far back as this, don't accept it. Be persistent. They've got what you need in some form or other.

[iwant my money back]

hello,i got all my statements off the internet has i do online banking worked all my figures out ie,without interest and with interest using the online calculator, sent my request asking for charges to be repaid, recieved a letter from lloyds on the 13th day stating sorry to hear about my complaint!it wasm't a complaint it was a request. they needed 4-8 weeks to investigate.(don't think so) on the 14th day i wrote again telling them my intentions was to take them to court if i didn't get response within 14 days, today 23rd april 2007 the 14 days are up what is my next step????????? please help

	Are you letting your bank keep your money Are you giving away thousands of pounds?? Many people aren't claiming all of the money they are entitled to when they make their bank charges claims. You have been forced to pay unfair bank charges. Have you forgotten that your bank has charged you inteest on those charges? If you are overdrawn and the bank owes you charges - then your overdraft is made up of charges - money which you bank owes you. Yet you are paying interest to the bank - on your own money!!! Follow this link to see the discussions on this. You might even double th size of your claim.

[Pen]

Hi PM
Just a few points.

I think pushing for Data Protection Act Subject Access Request compliance through the courts, and seeking damages for non compliance is possibly the only route. Damages would be at the courts discretion, but one could request that the court consider the fact that the Banks willful destruction or retention of such data has prevented you from exercising your rights to reclaim money they have unlawfully taken.

Case is being heard in the small claims track and i would only expect the court to award a small amount maybe less the £100 by the looks of other claims on this site

after being awarded judgment for none compliance against Lloyd's, which demonstrates I have done everything in my power to get my bank statements post and pre 6 yrs.

I should not have had to go this far. lloyds should have complyied from the off.

Bearing in mind the banks have informed me in a letter that they have not retained any information on our joint account post 6 yrs. So even if the judge orders them to comply if they have not got them as they say they will be unable to comply with the court.

After sending me a letter stating they no longer have my records I cannot see them admiting any different in court as this would show very clearly that they have been concealing the information from me. therefor £100.00 in damagers is not going to compensated for all the chargers they have taken from me over the last 30 yrs. that would be unfair.But I do see your point

Bankfodder, have you any thoughts on away around this issue.

Pen

[photoman]

Originally Posted by Pen

Hi PM
Just a few points.

I think pushing for Data Protection Act Subject Access Request compliance through the courts, and seeking damages for non compliance is possibly the only route. Damages would be at the courts discretion, but one could request that the court consider the fact that the Banks willful destruction or retention of such data has prevented you from exercising your rights to reclaim money they have unlawfully taken.

Case is being heard in the small claims track and i would only expect the court to award a small amount maybe less the £100 by the looks of other claims on this site

after being awarded judgment for none compliance against Lloyd's, which demonstrates I have done everything in my power to get my bank statements post and pre 6 yrs.

I should not have had to go this far. lloyds should have complyied from the off.

Bearing in mind the banks have informed me in a letter that they have not retained any information on our joint account post 6 yrs. So even if the judge orders them to comply if they have not got them as they say they will be unable to comply with the court.

After sending me a letter stating they no longer have my records I cannot see them admiting any different in court as this would show very clearly that they have been concealing the information from me. therefor £100.00 in damagers is not going to compensated for all the chargers they have taken from me over the last 30 yrs. that would be unfair.But I do see your point

Bankfodder, have you any thoughts on away around this issue.

Pen

Pen,
I am talking about taking a seperate distinct action, for Subject Access Request non compliance in relation to all the data they have failed to provide.
You cite that the failure to provide (or destruction) of the data, has prevented you from taking your rightful actions to recover what they unlawfully took. You claim for damages upon the premise that their actions have been tantamount to a deliberate obstruction of your rights. Damages should be assessed upon what you could have reclaimed had the data been provided.

	Subject Access Request A Subject Access Request is a demand which you can make to any organisation to disclose any personal information which they hold on you. The right to disclosure of data is provided by the Data Protection Act. There is no time limit. The organisation is obliged to reveal everything they have about you - which you ask for - as far back as you ask for. There are very few exceptions. It does not matter whether the data is held on microfiche, in an archive, on tape, in a cardex system, in sound recordings or in screen notes. Some companies are saying that they do not have to disclose where it would be difficult to do so - "disproportionate effort". This is untrue. Disproportionate effort refers to something else under the Act. If you are seeking bank charges information then you should ask for "all data held on you" and you should make it clear that you want everything as far back as it goes. Do not be put off by excuses. Do not accept being fobbed off. It is not in your bank's interest to make full disclosure to you. This means that it is in your interests to get it. If you have not started gathering your bank charges information yet, then you should start now. There will soon be a big rush once the OFT test case has been settled. Get all of your bank account informtion as far back as possible. At least as far back as 1995. If your bank says that they don't keep data as far back as this, don't accept it. Be persistent. They've got what you need in some form or other.