koko vs LloydsTSB

[kokomar]

Hello everyone.

Surprisingly it's taken more courage to launch a new thread than it did to send the 1st letter to lloyds which I did yesterday! I had intended to be a silent member, however so many of you have inspired me I thought I'd say thanks and see if I can inspire someone else.

Anyway here goes. I've written to LLoyds (30/8/06) using the 1st template letter claiming the following unfair charges (all are bounced DDs/CHQs exceeding overdraft limit, not monthly account charges or overdraft interest, within the last 6 years):

Personal Account £1969 + int @ 8% £440.93 total £2,409.93
Business Account £752.50 + int @ 8% £129.48 total £881.98
Joint* Account £236.73 + int @ 8% £29.88 total £266.61
Grand Total £3,557.86

*The joint account isn't joint anymore but it makes it easier to distinguish.

I owe Lloyds:
Personal Account Overdraft approx £1,200
Joint Account Overdraft approx £600
Loan Account approx £1,200

All I really want them to do is clear my debts to them, I told my business manager I was considering the info I had gleaned from this site and since it seemed likely that I would win could he just short circuit the system and wipe my slate clean. His response was basically that it I won't win and please go away and bother someone else.

I should say that since I'm self employed (and have a neurotic filing system) I had all my statements so skipped the part asking them for info under the data protection act.

I'm expecting the standard response from Lloyds so have the letter before action ready dated 13th September.

Anyway if I can figure out how to read answers and post back I'll keep this updated. Once again a big thank you to you all.

K

	Small Claims kit by Lawpack Sue your bank as many times as you like with just one Small Claims kit by Lawpack. Follow this link to read the review. The kit contains everything you need: instruction manual, templates, examples, forms and a comprehensive CDRom. Applies to England and Wales

	Bank Charges You should have started your claim for your bank charges by now. Don't wait. You should send your bank a Subject Acess Request asking for all personal data they hold on you - not just statements. You should calculate all of your bank charges and related interest as far back as 1995. You should send your bank a demand for a refund giving them 7 days. You should commence your legal action adding 8% statutory interest. If you wait for the outcome of the test case, you may not be able to claim like this. you may not be able to claim interest. You may only be offered the difference between the charge and the OFT "fair charge". The repayment scheme will try to limit you to refinds from 2001 only. A repayment scheme will not deal with any bank charges related defaults on the credit register whereas in a court action you can ask for these to be removed and to be compensated for the damage caused to you and your family by them. You should also write to the bank and to the CRA and put all charges related credit entries in disupte and warn them that you will want them removed from the Register when the test case is over. Warn them also that you are likely to be seeking compensation for these wrongful data entries. Full and final settlement Have you previously accepted a partial repayment of your bank charges in full settlement? You will still be able to claim the rest of your money back after the Test case is decided. Get all your information back to 1995 and put in your claim now.

	Are you letting your bank keep your money Are you giving away thousands of pounds?? Many people aren't claiming all of the money they are entitled to when they make their bank charges claims. You have been forced to pay unfair bank charges. Have you forgotten that your bank has charged you inteest on those charges? If you are overdrawn and the bank owes you charges - then your overdraft is made up of charges - money which you bank owes you. Yet you are paying interest to the bank - on your own money!!! Follow this link to see the discussions on this. You might even double th size of your claim.

[brecken]

Welcome koko, and good luck, not that you will need it, it might take a while but you will get there in the end, then you can go back to your manager and say nah nah n nah nah.

best of look,
Brecken.

[kokomar]

Thanks Brecken

On pins at the mo just waiting for my first snotty reply. But hey I've managed to find your message so things are looking up already!

Koko

[kokomar]

Well I got my reply from LLoyds dated 6th Sept but obviously they use a special postal system that takes 5 days to deliver a letter! It says exactly the same as others I have read on this site. They are sorry I'm upset and will make enquiries in the next couple of weeks and respond to me then. ha ha ha.

Anyway, I sat down today to send letter no 2 (LBA) and thought it would be wise to have another surf first and guess what ... I messed up the first letter. I included the 8% interest calculation when I shouldn't have, what a fool, hands up it's my own fault, I guess like a lot of people my time is limited and it's usually late in the evening before I sit down to do these things. Excuses excuses. I'll say it before anyone else does "It's in big red letters all over this site you idiot!" Doh!

My plan of action is to send the LBA tomorrow with the following addition:

I calculate that you have taken £2,958.23 plus £599.63 which you have charged me in overdraft interest for the sum which you have taken. Total £3,557.86.
I am enclosing a copy of the schedule of the charges which I am claiming. I have already sent you a copy of this in my original letter of the 30th August 2006. In the interests of clarity and to assist you with your investigations mentioned in your letter I offer the following:

1. The charges of £2,958.23 are clearly shown on the statements you have sent me, as detailed in the attached schedule.
2. The overdraft interest of £599.63 has been calculated at 8% as allowed by s.69 the County Courts Act (1984).

I require repayment in full of £2,958.23 representing the amount withdrawn as charges from my accounts. If you do not comply fully within 14 days from the date of this letter then I shall begin a claim against you for the full amount plus interest plus my costs without further notice."

I would appreciate any comments anyone has (apart from the obviously ones) and apologise profusely for contributing to the gene pool!

Koko

	Small Claims kit by Lawpack Sue your bank as many times as you like with just one Small Claims kit by Lawpack. Follow this link to read the review. The kit contains everything you need: instruction manual, templates, examples, forms and a comprehensive CDRom. Applies to England and Wales

	Are you letting your bank keep your money Are you giving away thousands of pounds?? Many people aren't claiming all of the money they are entitled to when they make their bank charges claims. You have been forced to pay unfair bank charges. Have you forgotten that your bank has charged you inteest on those charges? If you are overdrawn and the bank owes you charges - then your overdraft is made up of charges - money which you bank owes you. Yet you are paying interest to the bank - on your own money!!! Follow this link to see the discussions on this. You might even double th size of your claim.

[dogs_nutz1]

Hi,

Your on the right track, don't be surprised though to receive a standard bog off letter in response to the LBA. I submitted a MCOL and they left it exactly 28days before filing a defence. Don't be intimidated and be inspired by the many posts showing that this is how lloyds do business. Good luck and keep us posted

	Small Claims kit by Lawpack Sue your bank as many times as you like with just one Small Claims kit by Lawpack. Follow this link to read the review. The kit contains everything you need: instruction manual, templates, examples, forms and a comprehensive CDRom. Applies to England and Wales

[GaryH]

Hi koko,

I think you may be getting your wires crossed slightly here. Overdraft interest is completely seperate from s.69 8% interest.

Re-claimable overdraft interest is the interest that was applied by the bank on top of and as a direct result of each unlawful charge. This is quite complicated to work out, but there is a spreadsheet in the templates to help you. This typically would'nt amount to all that much and many (myself included) don't bother with it. If you do wish to claim this - which you are entitled to - then a figure for it SHOULD be included in your prelim and LBA.

s.69 8% interest is the statutory interest that the County Courts Act 1984 allows you to claim on top of any money you are owed when you issue a claim for it. As such, this SHOULD NOT be included, or even mentioned, in the prelim and LBA. It is only claimable if/when you issue a court claim.

Its too late to worry about your prelim now, but you'll certainly need to have another look at your figures before you send your LBA.

Hope this helps clarify matters.

	Small Claims kit by Lawpack Sue your bank as many times as you like with just one Small Claims kit by Lawpack. Follow this link to read the review. The kit contains everything you need: instruction manual, templates, examples, forms and a comprehensive CDRom. Applies to England and Wales

	Are you letting your bank keep your money Are you giving away thousands of pounds?? Many people aren't claiming all of the money they are entitled to when they make their bank charges claims. You have been forced to pay unfair bank charges. Have you forgotten that your bank has charged you inteest on those charges? If you are overdrawn and the bank owes you charges - then your overdraft is made up of charges - money which you bank owes you. Yet you are paying interest to the bank - on your own money!!! Follow this link to see the discussions on this. You might even double th size of your claim.

[kokomar]

Thanks Gary I got that far, having mentioned it in the first letter I feel like I must correct/explain it in the second therefore I made the changes as above. If I just don't mention it again it will look odd and I don't want to give them any excuses for chucking it out of court if I can help it. As well as that there is the implied threat, pay up now or it'll be £600 + extra when you pay up later! Hope this makes sense and yes I do feel stupid still! Thanks for your support.

[kokomar]

Update. Have just printed off the Subject Access Request for my LTSB Credit Card, the neurotic filing system hasn't worked I can only find this year, so that's 9 years worth of statements in the attic somewhere. It's worth a 40 day wait just to not have to go up there! Will update as and when.

	Subject Access Request A Subject Access Request is a demand which you can make to any organisation to disclose any personal information which they hold on you. The right to disclosure of data is provided by the Data Protection Act. There is no time limit. The organisation is obliged to reveal everything they have about you - which you ask for - as far back as you ask for. There are very few exceptions. It does not matter whether the data is held on microfiche, in an archive, on tape, in a cardex system, in sound recordings or in screen notes. Some companies are saying that they do not have to disclose where it would be difficult to do so - "disproportionate effort". This is untrue. Disproportionate effort refers to something else under the Act. If you are seeking bank charges information then you should ask for "all data held on you" and you should make it clear that you want everything as far back as it goes. Do not be put off by excuses. Do not accept being fobbed off. It is not in your bank's interest to make full disclosure to you. This means that it is in your interests to get it. If you have not started gathering your bank charges information yet, then you should start now. There will soon be a big rush once the OFT test case has been settled. Get all of your bank account informtion as far back as possible. At least as far back as 1995. If your bank says that they don't keep data as far back as this, don't accept it. Be persistent. They've got what you need in some form or other.

[kokomar]

Rec'd sod off letter no 2 yesterday, Ms Musarat Siddique (wow she'e busy) informs me that bounced DDs, SOs, CHQs & Exceeding Overdraft Limit are "charged-for services" and "the fees we charge ... are not any kind of default penalty". Well I certainly feel penalised so I guess we go to court now.

Actually I'm a little relieved as with the 8% interest added I can clear my Lloyds debts (except credit card which is another matter entirely).

One question: I am claiming for my personal account, ex-joint account and my sole trader business account (my name not a company name) can I lump all these together in one claim under the same legal argument or do I need to issue a separately claim for the sole trader account. I've seen conflicting points of view on this recently and don't want to make a mess of it!

Thanks Koko

	Are you letting your bank keep your money Are you giving away thousands of pounds?? Many people aren't claiming all of the money they are entitled to when they make their bank charges claims. You have been forced to pay unfair bank charges. Have you forgotten that your bank has charged you inteest on those charges? If you are overdrawn and the bank owes you charges - then your overdraft is made up of charges - money which you bank owes you. Yet you are paying interest to the bank - on your own money!!! Follow this link to see the discussions on this. You might even double th size of your claim.

[GaryH]

I dont think there's anything stopping you lumping them together, but if all the accounts have different terms and conditions you may be better off keeping them apart.

[kokomar]

Thanks Gary, I don't have the T&Cs for any of these accounts, they are so old, I found this Lloyds TSB - Classic Account for my personal acc, and this Lloyds TSB - Platinum current account for the ex-joint acc, but nothing for a simple business "current account". Any thoughts?

[kokomar]

OK found the bit I was looking for above. Picked up N1 claim pack and ready to go ......

Tick tock tick tock .....

Should have filed claim yesterday, still (2 months) waiting for HMRC to sort out FTC so I won't have to pay court fees. I know I'd get them back eventually but I'm "managing my cashflow in a mature and responsible manner" Ms Siddique, so don't you be thinking you've scared me off.

Watch this space!

[kokomar]

OK folks here are my Particulars of Claim form N1 to be taken to court tomorrow. I have lumped personal and business accounts together so comments most appreciated.

1. The Claimant has two personal accounts numbers xxx and xxx ("the Personal Accounts") with the Defendant which were opened on or around xxx and xxx respectively.
The claimant also has one sole trader account number xxx ("the Sole Trader Account") which was opened on or around xxx.
All the accounts detailed above "the Accounts" are conducted on the Defendant’s standard terms and conditions.
2. The Accounts have been operating continuously from the opening date until the present and during this period the Defendant debited numerous charges in respect of purported breaches of contract on the part of the Claimant. The Defendant has also charged interest on the charges once applied. The Defendant ascerts that the charges were debited in accordance with the terms of the contracts between itself and the Claimant.
3. Details of the charges applied are set out in Annex A attached to these particulars of claim.
4. The Claimant ascerts that:
a) The charges debited to the Accounts are unlawful and are unenforceable because they constitute a disproportionate penalty. The charges are punitive in nature and are not a genuine pre-estimate of cost incurred by the Defendant due to any alleged breach. They exceed any alleged actual loss to the Defendant caused by the alleged breaches of contract on the part of the Claimant but instead unduly enrich the Defendant who exercises the contractual term in respect of such charges with a view to profit only.
b) With regard to the Sole Trader Account penalty charges are irrecoverable at common law. The precedent for this was Dunlop Pneumatic v New Garage [1915] AC 79 along with Murray v. Leisure play [2005] EWCA Civ 963.
c) With regard to the Personal Accounts the contractual provision that permits the Defendant to levy such charges is also unenforceable by virtue of the Unfair Contract Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations (1999) and the Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977.
d) In the event that the charges are found not to constitute a penalty they are unreasonable within the meaning of the Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982 s.15 and as a result are not enforceable.
e) The claimant has repeatedly asked the Defendant to refund the charges or offer full details of the alleged breaches and the losses directly caused by them. They have declined to do so.
5. Therefore the Claimant claims:
a) The return of the amounts debited in respect of charges in the sum of £xxx; in accordance with the details set out in Annex A;
b) Court costs;
c) Interest under section 69 County Courts Act 1984 at a rate of 8% a year from 24th October 2000 to 23rd October 2006 of £xxx and also interest at same rate up to the date of judgment or earlier payment at a daily rate of £xxx as set out on the attached list of charges or at such a rate and for such periods as the court deems just.


Koko

	Are you letting your bank keep your money Are you giving away thousands of pounds?? Many people aren't claiming all of the money they are entitled to when they make their bank charges claims. You have been forced to pay unfair bank charges. Have you forgotten that your bank has charged you inteest on those charges? If you are overdrawn and the bank owes you charges - then your overdraft is made up of charges - money which you bank owes you. Yet you are paying interest to the bank - on your own money!!! Follow this link to see the discussions on this. You might even double th size of your claim.

[kokomar]

OK. I filed the N1 at court on Monday 23rd and it's now Saturday 28th and I haven't heard anything. I thought from reading other people's threadsI would have had my copy of the claim form back and a date by which Lloyds had to acknowledge pretty much by return of post. Notice of Issue I believe it's called. Is it just that it's faster if you use MCOL which obviously I didn't? Am I being too impatient? Is this just first time nerves? Does anyone have any valium? Koko

[GaryH]

How fast you get a notice of issue depends entirely on your local court and how busy they are. Some process claims within a couple of day, mine on the other hand, Swindon CC, are currently taking anything up to 2 weeks! The target is 5 working days though. Now, deep breaths in........ and out......... in..........

[kokomar]

Thanks GaryH just what I needed to hear! Thinking calming thoughts, waves gently rolling up a sandy beach etc.

[GaryH]

What about some nice calming whale music? works wonders for stress, allegedly

[kokomar]

Or a DVD of a crackling fire place ...

[kokomar]

Have been AWOL for a couple of months, lots of normal life interferring with my internet time! Ah well here's an update!

Claim Issued 30th Oct 2006 Claim No 6LS10505
Service Acknowledged 7th Nov 2006
Case Transferred to Mercantile Court 7th Nov 06 New Claim No 6LS40694
(but paperwork to tell me this is dated 7th Dec 06)
Hearing Date set for 7 Feb 2007

NO DEFENCE HAS BEEN ENTERED

So if anyone out there knows where I stand please let me know. I was just about to apply for a judgement due to lack of defence when I received the transfer notification, I guess I should ring the court but am a little afraid of looking stupid! It's now over a month since the deadline for Lloyds to enter a defence. Any thoughts please? (apart from you slacker you should have done this a month ago!).

Koko

	County Court guidebook by Judge Patricia Pearl Follow this link to read the review of this excellent Small Claims Guidebook. This comprehensive and very accessible guide will take you through the process of suing or defending a claim. This guide will help you take control of your litigation and make you more confident about doing it yourself. Applies to England and Wales

[GaryH]

Hi Koko,

Your case has been allocated to the Mercentile court. You haven't received a defence? Very strange. I'm guessing this is an error by the courts - give them a ring ASAP.

What about an AQ, have you filled in and returned that yet?

There is a mercentile court forum here - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk...t-cases-stays/. It might be a good idea to start a thread there also.