URGENT - Invoice Discounting -

[photoman]

Glad I could be of SOME help.

I'm unable to help you regards the specifics though, and re-iterate my advice (seconded by others) that you deal with this by consulting and using legal professionals.

PM

[transparentspoon]

jewelleryman,

Just a little bit of info - things have obviously progressed beyond any kind of complaints stage, but I've just been looking through my LTSB business pack and found two pamphlets:

1. In addition to the normal Banking Code there is also a Business Banking Code, to which LTSB is a signatory (complaints about contravention of the code need to be addressed to the Financial Ombudsman Service)

2. LTSB is officially represented by the British Bankers' Association and their "Principles" pamphlet outlines "how banks will seek to work together with small and medium sized businesses to get the relationship right from the outset and to help if the business gets into difficulties" - I'm not sure what the complaints procedure is but I think it's in line with FSA guidelines (something along the lines of having to go through the bank's own complaint procedure first then the next step is the Ombudsman again)

If you haven't already done so, I'd recommend writing to your MP because you are one of their constituents and your situation certainly isn't unique. Depending on who they are, they might be more than willing to take on the fight if it's an issue they feel strongly about and have other constituents in the same boat.

I'll try and look through your documents over the weekend and would also ask the other forum members to have a quick look as well if they have the time so you're not just getting my uninformed opinion As photoman says, for informed and accurate advice you need to speak with a legal professional, but there might be something in these documents that you can use to defend yourself with. If it goes to the High Court then the bank's conduct and handling of your situation will be taken into consideration so you need to think about cataloging all the events that have happened for your affidavit (witness statement).

Best of luck,

Neil

	The Banking Code Follow this link to read the Banking Code in full. Ofen ignored by its subscribers, half-heartedly monitored and poorly enforced

	The Financial Ombudsman Service For the most part, don't bother. The Ombudsman is an industry arranged service which is under-resourced, takes too long, lacks clear transparency. You have no idea what evidence the FOS has received from the bank or how your complain has really been handled. The FOS is the preferred complaints route for the banking industry. The county court is to be preferred by consumers for its speed, openness, the quality of its awards and also because it will award 8% interest on top of any damages won by you. The Ombudsman should normally be used to solving little technical difficulties or customer service problems which you have expereinced with your bank.

[jewelleryman]

Any advice?

[JonCris]

OP when are you to be heard at the High Court??

You appear to have entered into what is known as a factoring agreement. This agreement allows you to submit your invoices direct to the bank who in turns pays you an agreed amount (usual maximum 80%) plus other fees & charges.

The invoice is sent to your customer with a clear endorsement that it is factored. Please correct me if I'm mistaken & once you provide the info requested I'll try & help further other than to say from what you describe you may, & even though the bank will almost certainly argue change of position, have grounds for a counter claim against the bank

Also did they obtain an order to freeze your other bank account & if not what excuse have Barclays come up with to explain their behaviour??

[jewelleryman]

Hi JonCris,
It like factoring but I had confidential Invoice discounting where we issue the invoices and we chase the customers. Customers dont know the invoices are discounted. Thats what Lloyds told me anyway but they did ring the customers on my behalf. What exactly do you mean "change of position?"

And NO they did'nt get ANY order from anyone to instruct Barclays to freeze my account. They havent even chased the company but me personally. Barclays say, they froze my account as Lloyds have a debenture but they are not giving this in writing. I've been told that my barclays manager probably did this to protext himself, I dont really know but this is some internal stuff.

No warning or notices were given either from Lloyds or Barclays to freeze my facility and accounts. Its because of this action of theirs, Im in this position today.

High Court Claim was issued on 17th July. I filed Acknowledgement of service to get extra 14 days to get advice from this site and file a defence. Situation is I cant even afford to pay for solicitors as its a civil matter.

Which is why Im desperately seeking all the help and advice.

Thank you.

	County Court guidebook by Judge Patricia Pearl Follow this link to read the review of this excellent Small Claims Guidebook. This comprehensive and very accessible guide will take you through the process of suing or defending a claim. This guide will help you take control of your litigation and make you more confident about doing it yourself. Applies to England and Wales

[jewelleryman]

Neil, thank you for your notes.

[transparentspoon]

Hi,

I've looked through the documents (which wasn't quick on my stone-age dial-up connection I can tell you!) and have a few comments to make - whether they are relevant or not is another matter:

1. Mention is made in the agreement about an "insured limit" - did LTSB make any attempt to find out whether you had any insurance to cover yourself in the event of this situation arising, and if not, were they negligent in offering the financing? Referring to the debenture, on page 6 point 5.1.6 it talks about the need for comprehensive insurance against "Charged assets...(including loss of rent or profits)". You were also obliged to register LTSBCF's interest within your insurance policies and, as such, if you didn't demonstate this LTSBCF should have taken action on this basis (which is detailed in point 5.4 on page 9).

2. With reference to the personal guarantee, it would appear that action should first have been taken against the company (the "Supplier") which is then bound to you (as the "Guarantor") - point 4. (iv) clearly states:

"Any acknowledgment or admission by or any Judgement obtained by LTSBCF against the Supplier shall be binding on the Guarantor."

though point 6. in the same document might negate this.

3. With reference again to the personal guarantee, point 7. suggests that the whole of the claim should be against the Supplier, and as such they should be taking action against them rather than you personally.

4. Is there any reason why the deed of priority isn't signed by LTSBCF or did you blank this out?

5. In the debenture, section 7 (page 10) clearly states that LTSBCF will appoint an administrator or receiver in the event of a default (again, for the "Charged Assets") yet clearly this hasn't happened.

I can see nothing in these documents about LTSBCF or LTSB having any right to contact your other banks. They're only allowed to share information about you within their group and, in a general sence, for "fraud prevention" purposes with the relevant authorities, so I would suggest that they've broken the data protection act in some way.

To be honest, all these documents tie everything up for them so - again reiterating that I'm not a legal expert - I suggest there are three issues that you need to consider:

1. Should they have taken legal action against your company first, then you (therefore suggesting that the claim may be incorrectly addressed)?

2. Did they satisfy themselves adequately that you had the correct insurance in place to protect yourself against loss of profits?

3. Did they break the law by sharing information about your financial situation with an unrelated commercial operation?

Best regards,

Neil

	Are you letting your bank keep your money Are you giving away thousands of pounds?? Many people aren't claiming all of the money they are entitled to when they make their bank charges claims. You have been forced to pay unfair bank charges. Have you forgotten that your bank has charged you inteest on those charges? If you are overdrawn and the bank owes you charges - then your overdraft is made up of charges - money which you bank owes you. Yet you are paying interest to the bank - on your own money!!! Follow this link to see the discussions on this. You might even double th size of your claim.

[1970]

In my case the claim form had my Ltd company name on one line and my personal name on the next line. So they went for both at the same time.

Could that be the case with Jewelleryman?

[jewelleryman]

Hi 1970, no they just got my name only on the claim form not the Limited company's.

[jewelleryman]

Neil, Good morning.

Hi,

The only insurance they looked at was the credit insurance to see all my debtors were insured. No other policy.

They have not gone for the company, they haven't taken the company to court and they received no orders from anyone to instruct my other bank to freeze my account.

4. Is there any reason why the deed of priority isn't signed by LTSBCF or did you blank this out?
I think, they have the signed copy. There was so much confusion when I took the facility, they sent so many forms, which were wrong then sent again etc, so I dont know what I signed.

5. In the debenture, section 7 (page 10) clearly states that LTSBCF will appoint an administrator or receiver in the event of a default (again, for the "Charged Assets") yet clearly this hasn't happened. Correct, never happened.

I can see nothing in these documents about LTSBCF or LTSB having any right to contact your other banks. They're only allowed to share information about you within their group and, in a general sence, for "fraud prevention" purposes with the relevant authorities, so I would suggest that they've broken the data protection act in some way. Thats what I thought!

1. Should they have taken legal action against your company first, then you (therefore suggesting that the claim may be incorrectly addressed)?

2. Did they satisfy themselves adequately that you had the correct insurance in place to protect yourself against loss of profits?

3. Did they break the law by sharing information about your financial situation with an unrelated commercial operation?

Best regards,

Neil

Neil, thanks again, I'll see what others here have to say about your wise comments. I cant thank you enough in downloading my documents through your dial up modem and spending so much time in my problem. Thank you. God Bless You..

[transparentspoon]

Hi jewelleryman,

I've just had a read through the complete topic again and wanted to find out from you what documents you need to be submitting to the high court and by when.

Also, have you managed to speak with the CAB yet? I think - as photoman said earlier - there's a good case for a counter-claim but you''ll need to seek proper advice about this to make sure that the claim is submitted correctly and has a good chance of success.

It's hard to say how the judgment might go but I think the issue about the insurance (or lack of) is important - LTSBCF were negligent in not impressing upon you the importance of having it in place.

As you may have gathered, my legal knowledge is extremely limited(!) but I wonder whether it will be possible to settle this out of court. That said, it may be to your benefit that the claim does go to court but you do need to know your options (I would suggest this is weighed up against how much money LTSBCF has cost you as a result of their actions - both in terms of loss of immediate earnings together with the cumulative effect on the business). What's the situation with your business now - are you unable to trade at all because of this?

I would also recommend that you do some research (on the net is quickest) to find out the results of other similar cases, try something like

"high court" "lloyds tsb"

in Google and see what comes up.

On a final point, hope you're managing alright It must be awful not knowing how things are going to work out but the best way to deal with something like this is just to keep yourself as well informed as you can. From past experience, I've always found that having more knowledge about a situation makes it much easier to comprehend and put into perspective.

Best regards,

Neil

[jewelleryman]

Hi again

The latest is I am being chased for £95k. I proposed to pay them £550 per month or pay them £40,000 as a full & final straight away as thats what I could get. Both proposals have been rejected and they are keen to take me to High court, get a judgement and liquidate me.

I telephoned so many solicitors and they all want thousands as its a High court matter on account.

Really don't know what else I could do so I'm back here again for guidance.

Thank you

[1970]

In my case they agreed a settlement but only after it dragged on for a couple of years. The settlement discount worked out to about 12% of the outstanding balance.

In regard to monthly payments, they accepted £200 a month on a balance of £27k but only after they had obtained a charging order.

They took me to court and got judgement to lock the debt in, then applied for a charging order.

It seems that a monthly arrangement is only going to be acceptable if there is some form of security in place.

Although a charging order my not seem very nice, I found out that once they have security for the debt they cannot go for bankruptcy. On the front page of a stat demand it states that the petition is only valid if the creditor does not have security.

Just an idea - please dont take this as advice and sound it out with people you know and people on here but you could be proactive and ask if they want a charging order on your property. If you know in advance that this is what they intend to do, at least you have a clearer picture of what is going to happen.

Also, £550 a month would take about 15 years to pay off £95k so you need to establish if this period of time is reasonable for the bank. If it seems unreasonable, try and find out from the bank what period of time is reasonable. 10 years would make the payments about £800 per month.

Another proposal could be a cash sum now to make a significant dent in the balance, then offer a charging order on the rest with a monthly payment plan.

Finally, would bankruptcy hurt you too much? Could this be a viable option for you? As I understand you would be free of this problem within about two years and give the two fingers to Lloyds.

Fodd for thought, not advice and I'm sure our trusted friends on here could add some input.

Cheers,

1970.

[jewelleryman]

hi 1970

Good info, thanks. I'm going to cab now and do you know if the judgement stays or does it go as soon as they have a charge?

As if they put the judgement on me this will stop me from a remortgage, as thats where I could get little cash from...

[1970]

For me the judgement remained in the sense that it was still outstanding at the court although it never showed on my credit file at all. Perhaps this is because it is not a county court judgement but a high court judgement. Perhaps someone could confirm.

Also, the charging order stops you from selling without them getting their cash. It can also stop you remortgaging. However, when I remortgaged in order to give them the cash, they agreed to a temporary lift of the charge through my solicitor so that the new mortgage could be put in place.

Cheers,
1970.

	County Court guidebook by Judge Patricia Pearl Follow this link to read the review of this excellent Small Claims Guidebook. This comprehensive and very accessible guide will take you through the process of suing or defending a claim. This guide will help you take control of your litigation and make you more confident about doing it yourself. Applies to England and Wales

	Credit Report Click link to open in new window.

[jewelleryman]

1970,

This makes sense.
Thanks again. You, transparent spoon, neil, damon have all been great help.

Thank you

[jewelleryman]

Hi
My defence was filed in too late and the courts gave me a judgement.
Is it worth to instruct solicitors to have the judgement set aside or would it be a waste of money? And what would happen now with the judgement on me?

	County Court guidebook by Judge Patricia Pearl Follow this link to read the review of this excellent Small Claims Guidebook. This comprehensive and very accessible guide will take you through the process of suing or defending a claim. This guide will help you take control of your litigation and make you more confident about doing it yourself. Applies to England and Wales

[1970]

Any update?