Debt too Old - Or is it?

[CrossAlex]

I lost my job in the Middle East in 1997 and when I returned to England ended up owing the British Bank of the Middle East £6,000 on two credit cards. The debt was largely run up by one of my then colleagues who, when I was chased in 2001 by a debt collection agency in the USA, started paying the agency £30 a month. This was always by cheque sent to the USA. He did this for about six months and then fell [again] on hard times and couldn't pay any more. To my surprise the collection agency appeared to forget about it. UNTIL THIS WEEK! Now I've received a demand from a UK debt collection agency, for £17,000!

Can this be right?
Alex

[andrew1]

First of all I'd send a CCA requestto the Debt Collection Agency concerned saying:

I do not acknowledge ANY debt to your company.

I require you to supply the following documentation before I will correspond further on this matter.

1. You must supply me with a true copy of the alleged agreement you refer to. This is my right under your obligation to supply a copy of the agreement under the legislation contained within s.78 (1) Consumer Credit Act 1974 (s.77 (1) for fixed sum credit) - your obligation also extends to providing a statement of account. I enclose a £1 postal order in payment of the statutory fee, PO Serial Number xxxxx.

2. A signed true copy of the deed of assignment of the above referenced agreement that you allege exists.

3. You are notified that you are obliged to supply these documents, whether you are the original creditor or not under S189 of the CCA 1974.

Non-compliance with my request is a criminal offence under the above Act and will result in a report being submitted to the relevant statutory authorities.

As you are aware, a credit agreement that is not properly documented and signed by the customer is totally unenforceable under the CCA and therefore is a complete defence to any court claim that is issued.

Take note at this stage, that any legal action you may contemplate will be both vigorously defended and contested.


Yours Faithfully




Once you have the replies to that then you can know who you are dealing with.
I'd also ask for any statements from the company you were paying before.

You will then be able to tell where the additional charges have been applied and by whom. There are laws about charging interest and charges where no agreement exists on a consumer credit agreement in the UK, but you'll have to establish where the charges were applied first. I take it the Debt collection agency is a UK one? Which one is it if you don't mind me asking?

Then we can talk you through the process thereafter. There are procedures to be followed by the DCA's here. Also, do you know if this dca has bought the debt or just acting on behalf of the bank?

Take a stroll throght this Debt and Bailiff forum and get a feel for how to deal with these people, what the CCA request means - they have the first 12 days after 2 for posting to supply the agreement after which they will require a court order to enforce the debt, if after a further one month the have not supplied the documents to you they have committed a criminal offence. The debt is thereafter unenforceable until they come up with the paperwork and have thier court order to collect. Then you can start negotiating !.

[CrossAlex]

Very many thanks, Andrew. Most helpful.
The firm is CCI Legal Services. It embarrasses me to say that I was so annoyed when I got the letter, especially when it said I had failed to respond to an earlier letter which I have not received, that I ripped it into minute shreds and binned it!
No doubt I'll hear from tham again.

Originally Posted by andrew1

First of all I'd send a CCA requestto the Debt Collection Agency concerned saying:

I do not acknowledge ANY debt to your company.

I require you to supply the following documentation before I will correspond further on this matter.

1. You must supply me with a true copy of the alleged agreement you refer to. This is my right under your obligation to supply a copy of the agreement under the legislation contained within s.78 (1) Consumer Credit Act 1974 (s.77 (1) for fixed sum credit) - your obligation also extends to providing a statement of account. I enclose a £1 postal order in payment of the statutory fee, PO Serial Number xxxxx.

2. A signed true copy of the deed of assignment of the above referenced agreement that you allege exists.

3. You are notified that you are obliged to supply these documents, whether you are the original creditor or not under S189 of the CCA 1974.

Non-compliance with my request is a criminal offence under the above Act and will result in a report being submitted to the relevant statutory authorities.

As you are aware, a credit agreement that is not properly documented and signed by the customer is totally unenforceable under the CCA and therefore is a complete defence to any court claim that is issued.

Take note at this stage, that any legal action you may contemplate will be both vigorously defended and contested.


Yours Faithfully




Once you have the replies to that then you can know who you are dealing with.
I'd also ask for any statements from the company you were paying before.

You will then be able to tell where the additional charges have been applied and by whom. There are laws about charging interest and charges where no agreement exists on a consumer credit agreement in the UK, but you'll have to establish where the charges were applied first. I take it the Debt collection agency is a UK one? Which one is it if you don't mind me asking?

Then we can talk you through the process thereafter. There are procedures to be followed by the DCA's here. Also, do you know if this dca has bought the debt or just acting on behalf of the bank?

Take a stroll throght this Debt and Bailiff forum and get a feel for how to deal with these people, what the CCA request means - they have the first 12 days after 2 for posting to supply the agreement after which they will require a court order to enforce the debt, if after a further one month the have not supplied the documents to you they have committed a criminal offence. The debt is thereafter unenforceable until they come up with the paperwork and have thier court order to collect. Then you can start negotiating !.

[andrew1]

Originally Posted by CrossAlex

Very many thanks, Andrew. Most helpful.
The firm is CCI Legal Services. It embarrasses me to say that I was so annoyed when I got the letter, especially when it said I had failed to respond to an earlier letter which I have not received, that I ripped it into minute shreds and binned it!
No doubt I'll hear from tham again.

Well, I suppose that's one way of dealing with them However, once you get a further letter or the phone starts to ring if they now know where you are, you have to take control of the situation and not be intimidated by them - you may well be a big fella but that won't stop them phoning day and night and there letters in the templates library to stop harrassment. Communications Act / Wireless and telgraphy Act 1949 to ensure that all communications are by letter and the calls stop.

Serve them with the CCA request and follow the other 85000 of us home and dry!

[CrossAlex]

Thanks again, Andrew.
I'll post a progress update as and when.
Regards
Alex

Originally Posted by andrew1

Well, I suppose that's one way of dealing with them However, once you get a further letter or the phone starts to ring if they now know where you are, you have to take control of the situation and not be intimidated by them - you may well be a big fella but that won't stop them phoning day and night and there letters in the templates library to stop harrassment. Communications Act / Wireless and telgraphy Act 1949 to ensure that all communications are by letter and the calls stop.

Serve them with the CCA request and follow the other 85000 of us home and dry!

[CrossAlex]

Originally Posted by CrossAlex

Thanks again, Andrew.
I'll post a progress update as and when.
Regards
Alex

Got the inevitable follow-on letter which is stamped "NOTICE OF INTENDED PROCEEDINGS" stating that unless I pay they will commence proceedings in seven days. I've acknowledged and replied along the lines of your suggestion and will wait to see what happens next.
Regards
Alex

[andrew1]

Originally Posted by CrossAlex

Got the inevitable follow-on letter which is stamped "NOTICE OF INTENDED PROCEEDINGS" stating that unless I pay they will commence proceedings in seven days. I've acknowledged and replied along the lines of your suggestion and will wait to see what happens next.
Regards
Alex

Good luck.

[CrossAlex]

CCI has now replied with a copy of my passport and what seems to be the last page, with my signature, of an application form dated 11 December 1996. It's hardly a true copy but looks authentic enough. CCI say I must now pay, in full, by cheque payable to HSBC Bank Middle East. Interestingly, they don't give any timescale so I'm not inclined to reply overnight.

Any ideas?

Regards
Alex

Originally Posted by andrew1

Good luck.

[andrew1]

Originally Posted by CrossAlex

CCI has now replied with a copy of my passport and what seems to be the last page, with my signature, of an application form dated 11 December 1996. It's hardly a true copy but looks authentic enough. CCI say I must now pay, in full, by cheque payable to HSBC Bank Middle East. Interestingly, they don't give any timescale so I'm not inclined to reply overnight.

Any ideas?

Regards
Alex

Alex, are you sure this a true copy of the executed agreement? You don't sound particularly convinced. Also, how did they get a copy of your passport - would you have given it when you made the agreement?

There are a lot of discussions going on about the true copy. I take it this agreement is within the boundaries of UK laws is it? and if payments or correspondence have been going on then it would fall outside of the Limitations Act ie: there's been correspondence within the last six years.

If you are TOTALLY happy that this is a true copy of the agreement and that the DCA have a right to collect the debt then dialogue must be forthcoming and you'll have to see if an agreement to settle the debt must commence.

Two thoughts, although if they want the cheque made out to HSBC then they are probably only acting as an agent for the bank rather than having purchased the debt from the bank and chasing it for themselves. Have you had any notification either way of the debt being sold?

If it has we'll tackle that afterwards.

Firstly though you need to check that the money you are being asked for is a true reflection of the actual debt. You will need statements to see if there are any charges or penalties that can be disputed, if you have them all well and good, if not it's time to file a Subject Access Request off to the bank to get a full picture, if you feel the money they are asking for is not owed and is made up of charges then you will have to write to CCL and tell them that you do not recognise any debt to them and that the account is in dispute. They will lay off you whilst you are obtaining the info from HSBC ( 40 days they have so long as you use the template in the library (Data Protection Act Subject Access Request) and send with a £10 PO. Once that comes through then you can go through the process and reclaim/ offset these and the interest you can charge them against the true debt. Does that make sense? Let me know how you get on and post back what and when you send them.

[CrossAlex]

Very many thanks again, Andrew.

I'm confident the copy of the agreement is genuine even though it is not a "certified" copy. In the Middle East, a copy of a passport is required as part of the application process.

What astonishes me is that there has been no contact whatever since my ex-chum was making token monthly payments to a USA-based debt collection agency. I have not received any correspondence, or a statement, from anyone until CCI reared their head earlier this month. A statement of account should show the payments made in 2001. It may be an important point that these payments were not made by me. I'm confident that contact between the bank and/or their USA agents directly with me did not happen and, therefore, could not be proved. Certainly not within the last six years.

I've had no notification about the debt being sold although it seems to me that the USA agents had some vested interest and from what I've been able to gather my ex-chum was making payments by cheque made out to Worldwide Adjusters Inc from his bank at NatWest in England. In other words the cheques were not made out to HSBC.

It is clear that CCI is acting on behalf of the bank. I no longer have access, or contact, with the bank and so I don't see how I could initiate a Subject Access Request. Subject to your thoughts, which I really do appreciate, my inclination is to ask CCI to obtain from their client a statement showing how the debt arose. Once I get this, we can think again about the way to proceed.

Kind regards
Alex

Originally Posted by andrew1

Alex, are you sure this a true copy of the executed agreement? You don't sound particularly convinced. Also, how did they get a copy of your passport - would you have given it when you made the agreement?

There are a lot of discussions going on about the true copy. I take it this agreement is within the boundaries of UK laws is it? and if payments or correspondence have been going on then it would fall outside of the Limitations Act ie: there's been correspondence within the last six years.

If you are TOTALLY happy that this is a true copy of the agreement and that the DCA have a right to collect the debt then dialogue must be forthcoming and you'll have to see if an agreement to settle the debt must commence.

Two thoughts, although if they want the cheque made out to HSBC then they are probably only acting as an agent for the bank rather than having purchased the debt from the bank and chasing it for themselves. Have you had any notification either way of the debt being sold?

If it has we'll tackle that afterwards.

Firstly though you need to check that the money you are being asked for is a true reflection of the actual debt. You will need statements to see if there are any charges or penalties that can be disputed, if you have them all well and good, if not it's time to file a Subject Access Request off to the bank to get a full picture, if you feel the money they are asking for is not owed and is made up of charges then you will have to write to CCL and tell them that you do not recognise any debt to them and that the account is in dispute. They will lay off you whilst you are obtaining the info from HSBC ( 40 days they have so long as you use the template in the library (Data Protection Act Subject Access Request) and send with a £10 PO. Once that comes through then you can go through the process and reclaim/ offset these and the interest you can charge them against the true debt. Does that make sense? Let me know how you get on and post back what and when you send them.

[LondonPam]

If you believe that it is more than 6 years since you contacted them then I would send the statute barred letter. I don't think you have anything to lose in that respect. If your ex-chum paid them and they have proof of that then you can state it isn't you, especially as any cheques would be in his name and not ours. Good luck.

[andrew1]

Originally Posted by LondonPam

If you believe that it is more than 6 years since you contacted them then I would send the statute barred letter. I don't think you have anything to lose in that respect. If your ex-chum paid them and they have proof of that then you can state it isn't you, especially as any cheques would be in his name and not ours. Good luck.

I think you have a good point there LondonPam. However, I am not so sure about using UK legislation on overseas bank deals - someone with a bit more knowledge on that might like to step in here, but I don't want to lead you up the garden path.

Even with the copy contract, what legitimacy does it have if it was brokered in the Middle East? I'll dig around the forum to see if I can find someone with some knowledge.

[djweeble]

This is a debt from an overseas bank, UK law has no say in the matter, so the banks charges are not contestable in a UK court. The CCA has nothing to do with it, and the bank is not subject to the Data Protection Act, so you cannot even S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) them.

UNLESS.........

........ the DCA has bought the debt.

[andrew1]

Then what might the consequence be for repaying / collecting this debt ? any advice on the current position on this?

[CrossAlex]

To assist those trying to help me...

The bank was, originally, The British Bank of the Middle East, in Dubai, United Arab Emirates which was, along with Midland Bank, acquired by HSBC. To the best of my recollection, UAE law is modelled on UK law.

Regards
Alex

Originally Posted by andrew1

I think you have a good point there LondonPam. However, I am not so sure about using UK legislation on overseas bank deals - someone with a bit more knowledge on that might like to step in here, but I don't want to lead you up the garden path.

Even with the copy contract, what legitimacy does it have if it was brokered in the Middle East? I'll dig around the forum to see if I can find someone with some knowledge.