they cancelled car insurance without telling me!

[Mossycat]

Can you post the date of the first DD that was refused by your bank. Also confirm when you actually got paid from work (ie what dates were funds available). As far as you are aware was it only one DD that was refused (ie one months payment)

Sorry to ask these personal questions, but that information could be quite salient to what I am thinking might be an argument for you to use.

Also you now state that your Dad was the policyholder but it was you and your bank that was paying the premiums. OK that changes it slightly, the CIS do not have to notify YOU since you are not the policyhoilder, the onus now shifts to you to ensure that you were insured to drive the car BEFORE you took charge of it.

If you answer the points raised above, I'll get my thinking head on.

Mossy

[gooey1]

Thought I'd drop an opinion in, please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong!

Firstly, it's not illegal to backdate insurance. Insurers won't do it if they've not made any mistakes and a policy has been cancelled for whatever reason. If, on the other hand; they've made an error - they can backdate the insurance to ensure the policy was in force at the time the incident occurred. In motor insurance, a letter of indemnity is the quickest way to prove the customer was insured under the terms of the RTA.

Having a direct debit in place doesn't discharge the responsibility of ensuring payment was made in accordance with the agreement. It's not the insurers responsibility to make sure bills are paid, that lies with the insured.

On the subject of cancellation, if the insurer has sent out notice of their intent to cancel due to non payment but you haven't received it - that most likely won't influence their decision to refuse indemnity.

If they've met all their obligations as an insurer, I don't think you'll be able to obtain a letter of indemnity.

	The Direct Debit Guarantee • The Guarantee is offered by all Banks and Building Societies that take part in the Direct Debit Scheme. The efficiency and security of the Scheme is monitored and protected by your own Bank or Building Society. • If the amounts to be paid or the payment dates change, we will notify you three working days in advance of your account being debited or as otherwise agreed. • If an error is made by us or by your Bank or Building Society, you are guaranteed a full and immediate refund from your branch of the amount paid. • You can cancel a Direct Debit at any time by writing your Bank or Building Society. Please also send a copy of your letter to us. This is a term of your banking contract and you can sue on it.

	Car Insurance

[Mossycat]

Sorry but you are wrong, IT IS illegal to backdate an insurance certificate or a cover note.

Full stop end of argument.

Mossy

[gooey1]

Evidence please?

[gyzmo]

Insurance cannot be backdated. It can be got around in some circumstances, but usually in those cases, in law, the insurance contract was running anyway and really it is not "backdating". The very idea of backdating insurance goes against the entire point of insurance - covering risk. If it were allowed, we'd all be driving without insurance until an accident happened.

I would be interested in seeing an example (preferably real) of where insurance has been backdated.

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

Originally Posted by gyzmo

Insurance cannot be backdated. It can be got around in some circumstances, but usually in those cases, in law, the insurance contract was running anyway and really it is not "backdating". The very idea of backdating insurance goes against the entire point of insurance - covering risk. If it were allowed, we'd all be driving without insurance until an accident happened.

I would be interested in seeing an example (preferably real) of where insurance has been backdated.

Just to be clear, this is relating solely to motor insurance as required under the RTA.

	Car Insurance

[sim42]

Originally Posted by Mossycat

Can you post the date of the first DD that was refused by your bank. Also confirm when you actually got paid from work (ie what dates were funds available). As far as you are aware was it only one DD that was refused (ie one months payment)

Sorry to ask these personal questions, but that information could be quite salient to what I am thinking might be an argument for you to use.

Also you now state that your Dad was the policyholder but it was you and your bank that was paying the premiums. OK that changes it slightly, the CIS do not have to notify YOU since you are not the policyhoilder, the onus now shifts to you to ensure that you were insured to drive the car BEFORE you took charge of it.

If you answer the points raised above, I'll get my thinking head on.

Mossy

The insurance was paid by direct debit on the 10th of every month. When the CIS tried to get the money on the 10th July and couldn't they cancelled the policy the very same day. Thats my point - they gave no warning nor any confirmation of cancellation.
Funds where available about 4 or five days later but of course by then the policy was cancelled. It was only one refused DD.

Just to be clear the car was owned by my dad with him as policyholder, me as named driver. Dad paid for direct debit but the CIS didn't inform either of us. Mossy you say it was my responsibilty to check I was insured but who could be expected to phone their insurance company each time they use the car - its crazy - you assume your insured unless told otherwise.

whats the plan mossy?

	The Direct Debit Guarantee • The Guarantee is offered by all Banks and Building Societies that take part in the Direct Debit Scheme. The efficiency and security of the Scheme is monitored and protected by your own Bank or Building Society. • If the amounts to be paid or the payment dates change, we will notify you three working days in advance of your account being debited or as otherwise agreed. • If an error is made by us or by your Bank or Building Society, you are guaranteed a full and immediate refund from your branch of the amount paid. • You can cancel a Direct Debit at any time by writing your Bank or Building Society. Please also send a copy of your letter to us. This is a term of your banking contract and you can sue on it.

[Mossycat]

OK an insurer CANNOT suddenly cease cover without warning, and has a duty to inform the policyholder (in this case) your dad that the policy was about to be cancelled (otherwise there would be a lot of instances like this happening).

The CIS are usually pretty good at doing things right (and at doing the right thing).

The plan is that you ring (or your dad rings) the CIS head office in Manchester and demands to speak to a senior motor claims underwriter.

In the conversation stress that after one refused DD the insurance was cancelled, no 14 day letter of warning, no attempt to retake the DD, and by their own admission they have admitted that the policyholder was unaware of the cancellation and you as a named driver were driving the vehicle believing in good faith you were insured.

Give the underwriter a chance to sort it out.

If they refuse to do anything, but the above in writing and demand a reply in writing because (and tell them this you will be taking this to the FOS).

Post back if you need further advice

Mossy

	The Financial Ombudsman Service For the most part, don't bother. The Ombudsman is an industry arranged service which is under-resourced, takes too long, lacks clear transparency. You have no idea what evidence the FOS has received from the bank or how your complain has really been handled. The FOS is the preferred complaints route for the banking industry. The county court is to be preferred by consumers for its speed, openness, the quality of its awards and also because it will award 8% interest on top of any damages won by you. The Ombudsman should normally be used to solving little technical difficulties or customer service problems which you have expereinced with your bank.

[sim42]

I’ve written a letter to the co-op to confirm that they didn’t send any notification and I’m still waiting for a response.
I know they confirmed they didn’t send a letter over the phone. Is their anyway I can get a copy of that recording, possibly under the data protection act?

I’ve got my ‘special reasons’ hearing next Monday at Kendal magistrates. I know at these things the burden of proof is on me to prove I was driving with the intention of being insured. Any advice on what I should say and what evidence I should bring?

[Mossycat]

Take a copy of the insurance policy and before you go list all the salient dates.

Date insurance taken out

Date of first direct debit

Number of direct debits taken in total

Date of failed direct debit

State your case clearly, do not rush and do not get emotional.

State what you were told over the phone by the CIS and tell them that you are seeking a copy of this and have also written to the CIS (take a copy of that letter too).

Summarise by stating that you were driving the car because you fully believed you were insured at the time, insurance works on the principal of utmost good faith and to that end you were driving in good faith that you were not insured. The CIS did not abide by the guidelines of the FSA in regard to informing their policyholder about the cancellation and accordingly unless you had rung them everytime you were about to drive the car (which is totally impractical) there is no way you could have found out that the policy had been cancelled, and whilst you accept that you were driving without insurance there are some extremely mitigating circumstances.

Hopefully you will have got a reply from the CIS by then about the letter of indemnity.

OK sneaky plan B, ring the CIS again, record it yourself, don't forget to state at the start of the conversation that you may record calls (probably whilst you are on hold or pressing button options), and get a senior manager to comment on this case. Stress it is in Court next Monday, ask the same questions you asked before, and lead him to some answers like 'I was told the last time I rang the CIS that they did not <insert what you need confirming>, is that normal, how then do policyholders know the policy has been cancelled. (Get the idea?).

Post back on Friday with your final questions or things you need advice on, I say Friday because it will give you time to prepare what you need and organise what you need to.

Mossy

	The Direct Debit Guarantee • The Guarantee is offered by all Banks and Building Societies that take part in the Direct Debit Scheme. The efficiency and security of the Scheme is monitored and protected by your own Bank or Building Society. • If the amounts to be paid or the payment dates change, we will notify you three working days in advance of your account being debited or as otherwise agreed. • If an error is made by us or by your Bank or Building Society, you are guaranteed a full and immediate refund from your branch of the amount paid. • You can cancel a Direct Debit at any time by writing your Bank or Building Society. Please also send a copy of your letter to us. This is a term of your banking contract and you can sue on it.

[bazaar]

Hi Sim
got to your thread after the PM.
They will always say they 'Tried ' to contact you by phone. They tried that one with my son, I would send them an Subject Access Request to make sure you get from them all info they hold on you. It'll cost £10 but if they havent sent a notice to you, this will show up, then you can take them to small claims for your losses as well as reporting them to Ombudsmen etc.
My sons case was this, insurer cancelled policy and said they tried to contact by phone, but had wrong numbers ( This was a lie). So I made son go to office and ask politely for a copy of his policy. An office junior gave him that. so he went to court, showed the policy and it was end of story. However, he should have gone for the jugular then because he actually lost his car.
In the mean time, the insurer's manager has deleted his records, but as I was abroad at the time, my son never chased this up.
good luck

	Subject Access Request A Subject Access Request is a demand which you can make to any organisation to disclose any personal information which they hold on you. The right to disclosure of data is provided by the Data Protection Act. There is no time limit. The organisation is obliged to reveal everything they have about you - which you ask for - as far back as you ask for. There are very few exceptions. It does not matter whether the data is held on microfiche, in an archive, on tape, in a cardex system, in sound recordings or in screen notes. Some companies are saying that they do not have to disclose where it would be difficult to do so - "disproportionate effort". This is untrue. Disproportionate effort refers to something else under the Act. If you are seeking bank charges information then you should ask for "all data held on you" and you should make it clear that you want everything as far back as it goes. Do not be put off by excuses. Do not accept being fobbed off. It is not in your bank's interest to make full disclosure to you. This means that it is in your interests to get it. If you have not started gathering your bank charges information yet, then you should start now. There will soon be a big rush once the OFT test case has been settled. Get all of your bank account informtion as far back as possible. At least as far back as 1995. If your bank says that they don't keep data as far back as this, don't accept it. Be persistent. They've got what you need in some form or other.

[vusys1]

im confused?
PH is the dad & dad is paying the DD? why would CIS call the named driver about a DD default? surely it would be the PH

also,I personally have never heard of a Ins Company calling to inform a PH that their DD has rejected.

From my knowledge of the way DD's work is that the Ins company applies to the bank a few days before the collection date to make sure the money is there,if its not a letter is usually sent to the ph to say we will try again a few days later etc,usually about 2 more times,they then issue the cancellation due to non payment if the payment cannot be collected.

If the DD instruction was cancelled by the PH the company can cancel the policy back the payment rejection date as some small print states that this in an instruction to can the policy etc.

[Mossycat]

Originally Posted by vusys1

im confused?
PH is the dad & dad is paying the DD? why would CIS call the named driver about a DD default? surely it would be the PH

Yeah you are confused

The PH is the dad but the son pays the DD.

According to previous posts anyway

Mossy

[sim42]

sorry to be confusing; My dad was paying the DD but the CIS didn't inform either of us.
I know all correspondents would have gone through him and I wouldn't expect the CIS to contact me personally but I expect them to tell one of us!

[breeze1996]

sorry when I missed a D/D payment for insurance they sent a letter that they would apply again 10 days later for the amount.

Check your account to make sure they didn't take the money a few days later.

[sim42]

Originally Posted by breeze1996

sorry when I missed a D/D payment for insurance they sent a letter that they would apply again 10 days later for the amount.

Check your account to make sure they didn't take the money a few days later.

No, they didn't tell us that they couldn't get any money out of the account. If they did I wouldn't be in this situation now.
their was money in the account very shortly (about 4 days) after the due date of the DD so they obviously didn't apply again.

On another note, can anyone give me more info on these Subject Access Request Subject Access Requests.
I hear they are about £10. Do I simply write to the CIS with a cheque?
What do you get and how long will it take?

Just an update on my case: Its now been adjoured for another 2 weeks due to strike action at the magistrates. Do you think this will be enough time to get the S.A.R?

thanks for your help.

	Subject Access Request A Subject Access Request is a demand which you can make to any organisation to disclose any personal information which they hold on you. The right to disclosure of data is provided by the Data Protection Act. There is no time limit. The organisation is obliged to reveal everything they have about you - which you ask for - as far back as you ask for. There are very few exceptions. It does not matter whether the data is held on microfiche, in an archive, on tape, in a cardex system, in sound recordings or in screen notes. Some companies are saying that they do not have to disclose where it would be difficult to do so - "disproportionate effort". This is untrue. Disproportionate effort refers to something else under the Act. If you are seeking bank charges information then you should ask for "all data held on you" and you should make it clear that you want everything as far back as it goes. Do not be put off by excuses. Do not accept being fobbed off. It is not in your bank's interest to make full disclosure to you. This means that it is in your interests to get it. If you have not started gathering your bank charges information yet, then you should start now. There will soon be a big rush once the OFT test case has been settled. Get all of your bank account informtion as far back as possible. At least as far back as 1995. If your bank says that they don't keep data as far back as this, don't accept it. Be persistent. They've got what you need in some form or other.

[bazaar]

Hi Sim
If you send an Subject Access Request they have 40 days to comply, at the same time, you could ask for their complaints procedure, this should put them on notice that you may go to FOS in the near future, because they did not follow the correct procedure for cancellation

	The Financial Ombudsman Service For the most part, don't bother. The Ombudsman is an industry arranged service which is under-resourced, takes too long, lacks clear transparency. You have no idea what evidence the FOS has received from the bank or how your complain has really been handled. The FOS is the preferred complaints route for the banking industry. The county court is to be preferred by consumers for its speed, openness, the quality of its awards and also because it will award 8% interest on top of any damages won by you. The Ombudsman should normally be used to solving little technical difficulties or customer service problems which you have expereinced with your bank.

	Subject Access Request A Subject Access Request is a demand which you can make to any organisation to disclose any personal information which they hold on you. The right to disclosure of data is provided by the Data Protection Act. There is no time limit. The organisation is obliged to reveal everything they have about you - which you ask for - as far back as you ask for. There are very few exceptions. It does not matter whether the data is held on microfiche, in an archive, on tape, in a cardex system, in sound recordings or in screen notes. Some companies are saying that they do not have to disclose where it would be difficult to do so - "disproportionate effort". This is untrue. Disproportionate effort refers to something else under the Act. If you are seeking bank charges information then you should ask for "all data held on you" and you should make it clear that you want everything as far back as it goes. Do not be put off by excuses. Do not accept being fobbed off. It is not in your bank's interest to make full disclosure to you. This means that it is in your interests to get it. If you have not started gathering your bank charges information yet, then you should start now. There will soon be a big rush once the OFT test case has been settled. Get all of your bank account informtion as far back as possible. At least as far back as 1995. If your bank says that they don't keep data as far back as this, don't accept it. Be persistent. They've got what you need in some form or other.

[Beanie1]

Hi, just want to throw a different slant on this and ask a couple of questions. Q1, On what date did CIS cancel your insurance, i know it was from 10th July but when did they actually process the cancellation?
Q2, did you/your dad receive a charge from the bank due to insufficient funds?

[sim42]

Hi guys, been away for a while but I've still been working hard to resolve this issue. heres where i am at the minute;

phoned up the CIS yet again the other day, but this time I recorded it. I was a bit sneaky about it. First of all I didn't say who I was; I just acted like a new customer asking general questions. I asked random stuff about courtesy cars, European cover, online discount etc. I then went for the killer and asked about my rights to cancel.
I asked what would happen if they wanted to cancel the policy. They said they have to send a warning letter a massive 21 days before cancellation. They will then send another letter a week before and then normally one once they actually cancelled.
I then explained I had a policy and asked if they sent any of these letters. He put me on hold and came back with what I already knew. He admitted, straight into the sound recorder they hadn't sent any of these letters. I also confirmed they had all my correct details such as address- they did.
I then demanded to speak to a senior at their Manchester HQ. I kicked up a right fuss explaining how much this had cost me, that I could lose my licence and that I wanted to make a complaint.
Anyway, after a while he apologised. I suggested if they could carry on the insurance up until September, thus allowing me to be insured at the time in question.
He said they would consider it if I could prove I had no accidents during this time.

I didn't have any accidents, but how do you prove that? Anyway, it all seemed a bit underhand and I’m wondering if I'm doing the right thing. If I carry on the insurance I’ll have to pay the enemy even more but at least I won’t get any points.
On the other hand, I'll doubt I'll get convicted with this evidence anyway but then I will be able to complain to get my money back.
What do you think? All comments much welcomed

[Monty2007]

I have read this thread with interest and I believe that you have enough evidence to convince the court that the CIS did not follow industry-prescribed procedure (or thier own) in terms of policy cancellation. The phone recording may have been illegally obtained if you did not warn them that you were recording the conversation but if they honour their word and provide cover documentation or a letter to the same effect then you should be okay.

As you mentioned above, if you provide other details of your character in support of this then that should also go in your favour.

Sounds like a nightmare and I wish you well, hopefully it will be over soon.

	Are you letting your bank keep your money Are you giving away thousands of pounds?? Many people aren't claiming all of the money they are entitled to when they make their bank charges claims. You have been forced to pay unfair bank charges. Have you forgotten that your bank has charged you inteest on those charges? If you are overdrawn and the bank owes you charges - then your overdraft is made up of charges - money which you bank owes you. Yet you are paying interest to the bank - on your own money!!! Follow this link to see the discussions on this. You might even double th size of your claim.