molly-in-the-trolley Vs First Direct - SETTLED!

molly-in-the-trolly · 31st March 2006, 17:39

Hi all,

Got letter from First Direct today in response to our 2nd letter before court action. Ir basically says the same as the first letter about terms and conditions blah blah and a very unuseful leaflet about the ombudsman service which went straight in the bin.

We are starting our moneyclaim now for just over £8000 across 3 accounts.

Wish us luck!

has anyone else had a similar response to their letter before court action and if so what are you doing about it?

alanfromderby · 31st March 2006, 17:46

Have you read the FAQ's about the risks involved if going for more than £5000 in one claim?

alanfromderby · 31st March 2006, 17:47

Sorry mis-read, I see it is over three claims.

...and of course, best of luck.

Guadge · 31st March 2006, 17:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by molly-in-the-trolly

Hi all,

has anyone else had a similar response to their letter before court action and if so what are you doing about it?

Yes - I had exactly the same letter with leaflet arrive this morning, and filed my claim for £830 at 11.15 am, so will keep you posted!

molly-in-the-trolly · 31st March 2006, 18:55

Please can anyone advise me on my situation.

I am now taking First Direct to small claims court using moneyclaim. However i have a problem- We are claiming for 3 seperate accounts:

My husbands account for £365.77
Our joint account for £1770.93
and my account totals over 6 years £6080.47

I really want to keep the amounts within £5000 so we keep within small claims court limits should it go to small claims court and I was going to do 3 seperate claims but my account claim is over £5000. If I do 2 further seperate claims for my account by doing 1 for overdraft and 1 for uncleared directdebits etc its still does not go under £5K becuase the uncleared transactions only totals to about £500. therfore one of my claims will still be £5500.

Do you think it would be okay to do 2 seperate claims for me- 1 for dates 2000-2003 and a 2nd claim for 2004-present? Or will the court see this as a dodgy move?

please help as i dont know know what to do.

Thanks in advance your help is really appreciated.

chaos5678 · 31st March 2006, 19:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by molly-in-the-trolly

Hi all,

Got letter from First Direct today in response to our 2nd letter before court action. Ir basically says the same as the first letter about terms and conditions blah blah and a very unuseful leaflet about the ombudsman service which went straight in the bin.

We are starting our moneyclaim now for just over £8000 across 3 accounts.

Wish us luck!

has anyone else had a similar response to their letter before court action and if so what are you doing about it?

HI
Got the standard letter from First Direct this morning, sounds the same as yours and telling me that I can "escalate my concerns" to the next stage by writing to

Mr Robert Kernaghan
Customer Relations Manager

So I assume the next step is to file a claim, off round the site now to find out what to do!!

MondeoST24 · 1st April 2006, 13:12

What about if you issue claim for the £365.77 and £1770.93

If FD offer to settle prior to court you could write back saying I will accept settlement providing you they take the other accounts into consideration.

If they really want to avoid court, they may settle the lot.

On the other hand if it did get to court FD could probably say, we have offered settlement of this claim and the clamant refused it.

Just thinking out loud, the mods can probably advise better.

molly-in-the-trolly · 1st April 2006, 14:16

I emailed Stephen Hone as well and he gave me his phone number to ring him.

For anyone else out there with the same problem as me, Stephen's advise is that to put in two seperate claims is illegal so to put in all claims as 1 big claim on fast track so you are capped on only paying up to a max of £750 court costs. If they put in a defence then you only pay £750 max costs.

Hope this is helpful if you have the same problems as me. I'll keep you all posted.

MondeoST24 · 1st April 2006, 15:12

Thats interesting,

Is it also illegal to put seperate claims in for different accounts with the same banks.

I was about to do just that on Monday morning, sh!t !

Neo · 1st April 2006, 16:19

Yes it is but maybe not run the claims at the same time in case it takes you over the 5k -they may try to consolidate

BankFodder · 1st April 2006, 22:09

It is not illegal to sever your claim and to conduct two separate claims for smaller amounts. However, it might be a basis for challenge by the bank - assuming that it goes to court. There is a kind of double jeopardy rule called "res judicata" which means that the thing is already judged. This basically means that you can't bring a second claim based on the same set of facts.

The position at present is rather ambiguous. Technically bringing two claims each based on two different sets of charges levied at different times is not res judicata; they are different sets of facts, after all. On the other hand deliberately severing the claim in order to manipulate the court rules to leave the costs risk with the bank may not find favour with the judge.
But it is not illegal. It merely means that the judge might say that in the matter of the second claim the case is res judicata and strike it out. In order to do this, the bank would have to raise the issue of res judicata in the first place.

Moving the case onto the fast track because it exceeds £5000 is interesting. As you know, you will have a costs risk but limited to £750 costs of representaion for the other side but also (I think ) some costs of preparation too but I need to check this up.
An Up side of the Fast track is that there would be an order for standard dislcosure and this would be very serious for the bank. It means that the bank would be obliged to dislose all of the true costs of bouncing DDs etc. even if this information is harmful to its case. They have never done this and if they did then the whole house of cards would come tumbling down. It is perfectly possible that faced with the possiblity of the Fast track and standard disclosure that the bank might capitulate even more quickly than if they were put onto the Small claims Track.
However, and with respect, you might not be able to deal with the complications of standard dislcosure as this is where there is a real game between the lawyers for the opposing sides as to what information they have to reveal and what they can withhold. You would definitely need help - although The Bank Action Group will be very pleased to be be completely involved in this part of the battle.
The consequences of a properly handled standard disclosure for the bank might be a complete charges disaster for the Banks. However it would probably be necessary to have all of the information thoroughly analysed by experts and this would cost a lot of money which might not be recoverable. The banks costs risk is limited as well and they are unlikely to supply you with a discloure which was considerately rendered down into a userfriendly and intelligible form.

I would suggest that you sever your personal account claim into, say a claim for £4700 and then the balance. See what happens. You can't lose anything by beginning this way. Don't forget that if the matter doesn't actually get to court and is not properly decided by a judge then it will never be res judicata. So if the bank caves in then you are completely clear to bring all of the rest of your claims without any further worries. If that one is settled or you win in court then go on to the next one. Do not bring the claims simultaneously as you risk an application by the bank to consolidate them - although that would lead to the risks to them of the Fast track.

At the same time run the very much more modest claim on your husband's account and then make your claim for the joint account charges at the end.
Do start with the largest claim £4700 first. Try and find a reasonably natural place to sever the claim so that you can argue that there is no dupication of issues if you have to. I would strongly suggest claiming from the present backwards for as many years or months as it takes to get to the figure that you want.

molly-in-the-trolly · 2nd April 2006, 01:02

When you say make the claim £4700 and then the rest what do you mean exactly? When would i then be ale to claim the balance for my account?

Janet-M · 2nd April 2006, 01:36

BF means claim for £4700 when you have that and its all settled THEN put your next claim in . Don't put 2 claims with the same bank in at the same time

MondeoST24 · 2nd April 2006, 20:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by BankFodder

It is not illegal to sever your claim and to conduct two separate claims for smaller amounts. However, it might be a basis for challenge by the bank - assuming that it goes to court. There is a kind of double jeopardy rule called "res judicata" which means that the thing is already judged. This basically means that you can't bring a second claim based on the same set of facts.

The position at present is rather ambiguous. Technically bringing two claims each based on two different sets of charges levied at different times is not res judicata; they are different sets of facts, after all. On the other hand deliberately severing the claim in order to manipulate the court rules to leave the costs risk with the bank may not find favour with the judge.
But it is not illegal. It merely means that the judge might say that in the matter of the second claim the case is res judicata and strike it out. In order to do this, the bank would have to raise the issue of res judicata in the first place.

I just want to be clear about this BF, I was going to begin a claim next week against FD for £2,500. That is for charges on my sole account.

However, I am waiting for Data Protection Act requests for several other FD accounts, joint account, another sole account, 2 personal loans and a credit card.

Should I wait for this Data Protection Act response and issue the lot together, to be honest I dont think it will get to £5000, probably £4k ish. I would rather not wait as my £2,500 LBA will expire and I would prefer to stick to the deadlines. However I dont want to risk the subsequent claims being struck out on a technicality.

Advice?

BankFodder · 3rd April 2006, 16:13

Separate account severs very naturally and won't cause problems.
begin action when you want

MondeoST24 · 3rd April 2006, 17:04

Thanks BF, will begin action today.

molly-in-the-trolly · 3rd April 2006, 22:21

I emailed Stephen Hone about BF's reply and he advised me to do 1 big claim for all 3 accounts or 3 seperate claims for the 3 seperate accounts. He advised not to do 2 seperate claims for my account in 1 or 2 stages as the judge will not like the fact that I am clearly trying to play the system and will ask why am i sueing the same comapany for the same thing twice. I am going to do 1 big claim as this is cheaper in court fees. I am going through moneyclaim which will automatically allocate my claim to fast track. He thinks that even if they put in a defence they will start to make offers

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