MONARCH - One Disaster After Another

Armsoft · 30th August 2008, 10:27

We booked our flights to Sanford (Florida) through `Last Minute . Com` for 3 Direct Non Stop Return flights with Monarch.
2 Weeks before departure date we booked Extra Legroom Seats direct with Monarch at a cost of £210 (£70 Each) and were told by the Monarch representative that these were on the right side of the plane with 1 Window Seat 1 Aisle Seat and the third seat being across the Aisle, so seats A,B & C.
When we arrived at Gatwick on the morning of the flight we were told a check-in that the plane had been changed from the original Long Haul Aircraft to a Short Haul Aircraft "Due to OPerational Changes" and that the flight would now not be a Direct Flight as it needed to stop in Canada for Fuel.
I asked if we still had the same Extra Legroom Seats and was told we would still have them.
On boarding the plane we found that the seats we had been allocated were Centre Aisle Seats with Crew Stowage Lockers infront of them, so for the duration of the flight we had to keep our feet out of the Aisle as a regular procession of Passangers waled across infront of us and the Crew repeatedly came for access to the lockers.
We landed in Canada and were told the stop would take about 20minutes, we left Canada about 1 hour 15 minutes later having been sat on the runway in extreme heat with the doors open.
On arrival at our destination I sent an Email of complaint to Monarch listing my dissatisfaction and requested a refund of the Extra Legroom charge and compensation for the Non Direct flight change, along with compensation for the fact that due to their changes we were unable to sleep due to the conditions during the 10 hour flight.
I indicated that I would be willing to accept a Flight Upgrade to Premium Cabin on our return flight as full compensation.
5 days later I received a reply from Monarch (standard letter, thanks for complaining we hope to get back to you within 6 weeks!).
I was not prepared to ruin anymore of our holiday exchanging further emails with them, so intended to write to them on our return to the UK.
2 weeks later we arrived at Sanford Airport for our flight home -
We were told at check-in that the flight had been changed (Where have I heard that before??) this time there was a delay on the flight of Three and a Half hours, and we would be on an Aircraft supplied by OMNI-AIRWAYS(never heard of them before??). I asked if we were being upgraded to Premium Cabin, at this point the Check-In clerk laughed and said "Omni-Airways don`t do Premium" (and as we found out later that day, he was not wrong!!), I asked if we were still getting Extra Legroom Seats that we had paid for, and were told we should be.
The facilities at Sanford are very basic so we booked into the only `Lounge` that was there so that we could make ourselves comfortable for the expected delay, at a cost of £35.
Our delayed flight was due to depart Sanford at 19:50, but at this time we were still sitting in the lounge waiting to be called to board. There was a tannoy anouncement at 20:10 advising us that the `Cleaners` were on the plane getting it ready and that we should be being called to board in about 20 minutes. 30 Minutes later we were called to the departure area where we were eventually sent to the plane to board.
When we found our seats on the `Aircraft` (I use the term Aircraft loosely as I briefly remember boarding a simular thing as a child, and I`m 48 now!) only to find that they were not Extra Legroom and had a seat pitch suitable for a person with no height or legs (no offence meant to anyone here), I asked the cabin crew if they were Extra Legroom Seats, and was politely advised that they were Not and that they could not provide us with Extra Legroom Seats.
On our return to the UK I wrote a strongly worded Email to Monarch detailing our return journey events, and asked for a Refund of the Extra Legroom charge, a refund of 3x£197.00 which was the price difference on the day of booking between a Direct & Non Direct Flight, I also asked for the statatory compensation for the Four and a Half hour delay.
I received a reply yesterday (Having given them till yesterday to respond prior to me filing through the Small Claims Court online) and the basic response was we are not giving you anything!

Any thoughts on where to take this now??

Armsoft · 30th August 2008, 10:53

The following is the full text of yesterdays reply from Monarch.
You will see that they make no mention of the problems from the return leg of our journey and deny liability.
It`s also interesting to note that they are under the assumption that we were on a `Package Holiday` with a Tour Operator, seems like the Right Hand does not have a clue what the Left Hand is doing!!

"
Our ref:Cp/XXXX/XXXX

29 August 2008

Dear Mr Armsoft"
Thank you for your email regarding your flights to and from Sanford, and I apologise for the delay in our response. It is correct that we have had an inordinately high level of correspondence this season and this includes hard copy post, emails and faxed correspondence. I am sure you will appreciate that we endeavour to deal with this in date order of its receipt, in order to be fair to all.

Firstly, it may be helpful if I explain that the Premium Cabin cannot be purchased direct from Monarch. As a charter airline we operate on behalf of the tour operators with whom you book the holiday, or flight only. Those tour operators book and ticket their own clients and levy all charges themselves, including those for upgrades. Therefore, the Premium Cabin is “their upgrade” and is usually purchased at the time of booking the holiday.

I have checked with our customer services department where all upgrades and pre-seating is logged. It is correct that on the 26 July we had to downgrade the aircraft operating the flight, due to maintenance within the fleet. Therefore, those passengers who had booked Premium with their tour operator were seated at the front of the aircraft, although this was not a separate cabin.

It is not possible to assess if the tour operators had sold all Premium seats on the aircraft. From our point of view, the Premium cabin is always full as it is “sold” already to the tour operators and it then up to them if they sell all those seats to their clients (as outlined in my second paragraph).

This aircraft does not have the range to operate direct, and it was necessary to refuel en route. The aircraft is scheduled to be on the ground for an hour at this refuelling stop. It was scheduled to arrive at 1345GMT (actually arrived at 1325GMT) and scheduled to depart at 1445 GMT (actual time of departure was 1441GMT). Whilst the aim is to refuel the aircraft as soon as possible to avoid delay, this is dependent of Air Traffic Control slots etc.

Turning to your seat allocation, our customer services’ records show that they pre-allocated Row 9 DEF which are legroom seats on this aircraft type as they are on the exit row. I would just explain here that passengers are unable to stipulate which seats they wish to occupy – aisle, window etc although they can be placed as a “request” and allocated if possible.

Whilst I can understand how frustrating this situation must have been, I regret that we are unable to offer compensation. All airlines reserve the right to deploy their serviceable aircraft where they deem necessary, regardless of whether or not this involves a re-fuelling stop. The terms and conditions on the back of your ticket do state that times are approximate and not guaranteed and form no part of the contract of carriage.

Cont/d..

-2-

I would just add that had we waited for another, larger aircraft to become available the flight could have sustained a considerable delay.

I can see from your email that you hoped to occupy the Premium Cabin on your return sector, and I do hope that your tour operator was able to arrange this for you.

Once again, I am sorry that you had cause for complaint and I hope that any future flight with us will be more enjoyable. If you are interested in booking Premium on another Monarch flight, your tour operator will be able to advise you at the time of booking the holiday; if you require legroom seats please feel free to contact our customer services department on 0871 225 2555 where the staff will be happy to discuss this with you.

Yours sincerely
Chris Penny
Customer Relations Advisor"

Gogivit · 30th August 2008, 12:43

If you dont mind me saying so, and being inpartial, a couple of points you have made seem a bit unusual; You say you were annoyed because you couldn't leave your feet in the aisle as customers and cabin crew were going about their business. Why would you want to do that? You also say, you were advised there would be a 20 minute stop to refuel in Canada; being realistic, do you think a long haul aircraft can land, taxi, refuel and depart in 20 minutes? It is worth noting that all airline tickets state that aircraft types may be subject to change without notice.

Going back to extra leg room seating, I am assuming you flew on a Boeing 757 aircraft which has a cabin 3 seats by 3 seats. The fact you were allocated seating next to the door areas suggests to me you had plenty of leg room. However on your return flight with Omni Air, I think you have a cause to complain-not with Monarch but with the tour operator. I think you should ask for £105.00. Many people don't realise this but tour operators usually buy seats on an aircraft a year in advance, Monarchs only concern was to get you to your destination. Your tour operators concern was to honour your request for any additions you paid for, ie extra leg room, window seat etc. But remember the typical seat pitch on a charter airline is about 30 inches, your seat on your trip to USA was in an area with doors so would have been double that! No you were not at the front of the plane, but you had more room than the rest.

Out of interest I once flew with Monarch on a 757 to Orlando and stopped over in Canada and was seated in the back with a 29 inch pitch! However I was just grateful to get home after experiencing 3/4 of an hour being tossed arround in blizard storms over the Atlantic

I dont want to sound negative but just fair and realistic.

Armsoft · 30th August 2008, 14:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gogivit

If you dont mind me saying so, and being inpartial, a couple of points you have made seem a bit unusual; You say you were annoyed because you couldn't leave your feet in the aisle as customers and cabin crew were going about their business. Why would you want to do that? You also say, you were advised there would be a 20 minute stop to refuel in Canada; being realistic, do you think a long haul aircraft can land, taxi, refuel and depart in 20 minutes? It is worth noting that all airline tickets state that aircraft types may be subject to change without notice.

Going back to extra leg room seating, I am assuming you flew on a Boeing 757 aircraft which has a cabin 3 seats by 3 seats. The fact you were allocated seating next to the door areas suggests to me you had plenty of leg room. However on your return flight with Omni Air, I think you have a cause to complain-not with Monarch but with the tour operator. I think you should ask for £105.00. Many people don't realise this but tour operators usually buy seats on an aircraft a year in advance, Monarchs only concern was to get you to your destination. Your tour operators concern was to honour your request for any additions you paid for, ie extra leg room, window seat etc. But remember the typical seat pitch on a charter airline is about 30 inches, your seat on your trip to USA was in an area with doors so would have been double that! No you were not at the front of the plane, but you had more room than the rest.

Out of interest I once flew with Monarch on a 757 to Orlando and stopped over in Canada and was seated in the back with a 29 inch pitch! However I was just grateful to get home after experiencing 3/4 of an hour being tossed arround in blizard storms over the Atlantic

I dont want to sound negative but just fair and realistic.

Thanks for the advice, although in reply I would want to say that we purchased the Extra Legroom seats through Monarch,we were supposed to have seats at the side of the plane next to a door area, but were given the 3 middle seats. The whole idea of spending £210 on Extra Legroom Seats was so that we could stretch out, relax and get some sleep during the flight, but under the conditions we were put in, this was impossible.

Regarding the stop in Canada, we were told by the Captain that we would be on the ground for 20 minutes, which obviously is possible to refuel in that time, but we were actually on the ground stationary for over an hour, that was without Landing/Taxi-ing & Taking Off.

And as the additions were purchased direct from Monarch and not a tour operator, the issue is for them to deal with.

When you book a flight with an airline you are entering into a joint contract with prescribed terms, the airline can not just make changes at will without being liable for any redress, if that was the case then all airlines would sell you the expensive option and give you the cheapest option time after time, but life is not like that, and thats why this site exists, it enables people who have been trated unfairly to get advice on how to go about getting compensated for Companies/Banks etc blatent abuse of contractural obligations.

If the boot was on the other foot for instance, rather than paying for your flight before you fly, you pay after the flight, and you say to the airline "I`m only going to pay you 50% of your ticket price" do you seriously think the airline is going to accept that??
No they would not!!

The fact is, you pay for something, you are entitled to get what you paid for, and if you have been paid for something then you must give what you have been paid for.

I appreciate your feedback, but all I am trying to be is fair and realistic. I`m not asking for a full refund of everything I paid, just a refund for the things I paid for that I did not receive.

foolishgirl · 30th August 2008, 14:57

Doesn't air travel just p*** you off nowadays?! And unfortunately your tale of woe is all too common Armsoft.

IMO these are the claims I think you are entitled to submit:

Monarch - extra leg room seats - return journey only. Monarch will argue that you were given the ELR on the outward even if the comfort was not to your satisfaction. Don't think you can claim crappy seat position as there are prob. caveat clauses in the contract. I would try for the whole lot to start with though.
In addition, compensation for the inconvenience, stress (you couldn't sleep etc) on the return journey - leave to court's discretion unless you can prove any financial losses.
Unlike Gogivit, I think this claim is with Monarch as you paid them for the ELR not Lastminute unless your contract with LM only stipulated 'flight to/return' or similar & not a def. Monarch flight.
Last Minute.com - Direct flight not provided. Claim for 'extra cost' over flight with stops, plus inconvenience, extra time to destination etc. Suspect the T&Cs will exempt them but worth a letter. You paid extra for something you didn't get even if it was a result of 'technical operations' etc. - their responsibility not yours.

I've pushed holiday companies to court before (& you have to get them there to cough up!) but they inevitably don't turn up for the hearing & just submit a paltry written defence. Get a sympathetic DC & you've won. (of course nothing's guaranteed) Good luck!

Armsoft · 1st September 2008, 18:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by foolishgirl

Doesn't air travel just p*** you off nowadays?! And unfortunately your tale of woe is all too common Armsoft.

IMO these are the claims I think you are entitled to submit:

Monarch - extra leg room seats - return journey only. Monarch will argue that you were given the ELR on the outward even if the comfort was not to your satisfaction. Don't think you can claim crappy seat position as there are prob. caveat clauses in the contract. I would try for the whole lot to start with though.
In addition, compensation for the inconvenience, stress (you couldn't sleep etc) on the return journey - leave to court's discretion unless you can prove any financial losses.
Unlike Gogivit, I think this claim is with Monarch as you paid them for the ELR not Lastminute unless your contract with LM only stipulated 'flight to/return' or similar & not a def. Monarch flight.
Last Minute.com - Direct flight not provided. Claim for 'extra cost' over flight with stops, plus inconvenience, extra time to destination etc. Suspect the T&Cs will exempt them but worth a letter. You paid extra for something you didn't get even if it was a result of 'technical operations' etc. - their responsibility not yours.

I've pushed holiday companies to court before (& you have to get them there to cough up!) but they inevitably don't turn up for the hearing & just submit a paltry written defence. Get a sympathetic DC & you've won. (of course nothing's guaranteed) Good luck!

Thanks for the advice.

Looks like they are beginning to crumble already, as I received a mail from them today offering `Gesture of Goodwill` payment for the Extra Legroom seats on the Outbound Flight (I still can`t understand why they have not looked at the Return Flight Complaint yet), so I have replied saying I will accept this payment only if it is a Full Payment for both Flights ie; £210.00, I have also asked for the statatory Compensation for the 4.5 hour delayed return flight aswell.

Do you know what compensation is due for a 4.5 hour delayed flight? I seem to remember seeing somthing about 250Euro`s somewhere, but I can`t remember where.

Thanks

Thailand · 1st September 2008, 18:11

Article 6

Quote:

Delay
1. When an operating air carrier reasonably expects a flight to be delayed beyond its scheduled time of departure:
(a) for two hours or more in the case of flights of 1500 kilometres or less; or
(b) for three hours or more in the case of all intra-Community flights of more than 1500 kilometres and of all other flights between 1500 and 3500 kilometres; or
(c) for four hours or more in the case of all flights not falling under (a) or (b),
passengers shall be offered by the operating air carrier:
(i) the assistance specified in Article 9(1)(a) and 9(2); and
(ii) when the reasonably expected time of departure is at least the day after the time of departure previously announced, the assistance specified in Article 9(1)(b) and 9(1)(c); and
(iii) when the delay is at least five hours, the assistance specified in Article 8(1)(a).
2. In any event, the assistance shall be offered within the time limits set out above with respect to each distance bracket.

Article 7
Right to compensation
1. Where reference is made to this Article, passengers shall receive compensation amounting to:
(a) EUR 250 for all flights of 1500 kilometres or less;
(b) EUR 400 for all intra-Community flights of more than 1500 kilometres, and for all other flights between 1500 and 3500 kilometres;
(c) EUR 600 for all flights not falling under (a) or (b).
In determining the distance, the basis shall be the last destination at which the denial of boarding or cancellation will delay the passenger's arrival after the scheduled time.
2. When passengers are offered re-routing to their final destination on an alternative flight pursuant to Article 8, the arrival time of which does not exceed the scheduled arrival time of the flight originally booked
(a) by two hours, in respect of all flights of 1500 kilometres or less; or
(b) by three hours, in respect of all intra-Community flights of more than 1500 kilometres and for all other flights between 1500 and 3500 kilometres; or
(c) by four hours, in respect of all flights not falling under (a) or (b),
the operating air carrier may reduce the compensation provided for in paragraph 1 by 50 %.
3. The compensation referred to in paragraph 1 shall be paid in cash, by electronic bank transfer, bank orders or bank cheques or, with the signed agreement of the passenger, in travel vouchers and/or other services.
4. The distances given in paragraphs 1 and 2 shall be measured by the great circle route method.

Article 8
Right to reimbursement or re-routing
1. Where reference is made to this Article, passengers shall be offered the choice between:
(a) - reimbursement within seven days, by the means provided for in Article 7(3), of the full cost of the ticket at the price at which it was bought, for the part or parts of the journey not made, and for the part or parts already made if the flight is no longer serving any purpose in relation to the passenger's original travel plan, together with, when relevant,
- a return flight to the first point of departure, at the earliest opportunity;
(b) re-routing, under comparable transport conditions, to their final destination at the earliest opportunity; or
(c) re-routing, under comparable transport conditions, to their final destination at a later date at the passenger's convenience, subject to availability of seats.
2. Paragraph 1(a) shall also apply to passengers whose flights form part of a package, except for the right to reimbursement where such right arises under Directive 90/314/EEC.
3. When, in the case where a town, city or region is served by several airports, an operating air carrier offers a passenger a flight to an airport alternative to that for which the booking was made, the operating air carrier shall bear the cost of transferring the passenger from that alternative airport either to that for which the booking was made, or to another close-by destination agreed with the passenger.

Article 9
Right to care
1. Where reference is made to this Article, passengers shall be offered free of charge:
(a) meals and refreshments in a reasonable relation to the waiting time;
(b) hotel accommodation in cases
- where a stay of one or more nights becomes necessary, or
- where a stay additional to that intended by the passenger becomes necessary;
(c) transport between the airport and place of accommodation (hotel or other).
2. In addition, passengers shall be offered free of charge two telephone calls, telex or fax messages, or e-mails.
3. In applying this Article, the operating air carrier shall pay particular attention to the needs of persons with reduced mobility and any persons accompanying them, as well as to the needs of unaccompanied children.

EUR-Lex - 32004R0261 - EN

I can't link to a commercial site, but I think it might be worth googling 261/2004.

Good luck.

Armsoft · 1st September 2008, 19:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thailand

Article 6

EUR-Lex - 32004R0261 - EN

I can't link to a commercial site, but I think it might be worth googling 261/2004.

Good luck.

Thanks very much for pointing me in the right direction, very much appreciated

Armsoft · 2nd September 2008, 10:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Armsoft

Thanks very much for pointing me in the right direction, very much appreciated

Received a Phone Call from Monarch this morning offering a Full Refund for the Extra Legroom Seats, so that is that part of the claim sorted.

I have Emailed Last Minute requesting a refund of the cost difference between Direct Vs Indirect Flights (3x £197.00) and advised that I will allow 28 days for them to resolve my complaint to my satisfaction before I file online at Small Claims Court.

In all honesty, if LM pay the cost difference I will not persue them for any additional compensation, but if I have to do the legwork to get it through the courts I will ask for compensation at the descretion of the court.

ho humm, 28 days and counting

Thailand · 2nd September 2008, 11:37

Excellent!.

foolishgirl · 2nd September 2008, 19:54

Can't believe Monarch were so easy - I've had horrible probs. with them before now. Good luck with Last Minute

Armsoft · 2nd September 2008, 20:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by foolishgirl

Can't believe Monarch were so easy - I've had horrible probs. with them before now. Good luck with Last Minute

I was as suprised as you, especially with the phone call at 9am this morning!

I`ve started the ball rolling with Last Minute, I`ll keep you updated as things progress.

jules79uk · 4th September 2008, 18:36

How is this going Armsoft any updates as looks like we had the same issues maybe we were even on the same flight! Also what email address are you using to send your complaint too?

Read my episode!

MyTravel or Monarch who should i seek Compensation?

Armsoft · 5th September 2008, 18:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by jules79uk

How is this going Armsoft any updates as looks like we had the same issues maybe we were even on the same flight! Also what email address are you using to send your complaint too?

Read my episode!

MyTravel or Monarch who should i seek Compensation?

jules,
I flew from Gatwick on the 26th July, so not the same flight, which proves another point - Monarch are getting consistant with their performance!
Consistantly Bad

I`ve added some tips onto your episode, hope its of help

Armsoft · 12th September 2008, 18:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by foolishgirl

Can't believe Monarch were so easy - I've had horrible probs. with them before now. Good luck with Last Minute

Cheque received today (Thankyou Monarch) so there are some honest airlines out there!
Unlike XL who I understand were taking bookings upto Midnight Last Night!!

Not heard anything from Last Minute yet, but then they did say "within 28 days" and we are only 8 days into it with them so far.

Armsoft · 25th September 2008, 16:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by foolishgirl

Can't believe Monarch were so easy - I've had horrible probs. with them before now. Good luck with Last Minute

Well, after 24 days waiting I finally got a response from Last Minute -

"
SubjectLastminute.com FAQ Complaint: Flight Response (Charlotte Ambrose)24/09/2008 09.39 AMYour reference: 94598076
Our reference: PSC-CA61045

Dear Mr Armsoft,

Thank you for contacting lastminute.com regarding the above booking.

I am sorry to hear of the problems experienced with your flight.

The following is stated in our terms and conditions “Note that Globepost Limited are selling the tickets as agents for the airlines, which means the contract for the flight product will be between you and the airline.” With this in mind lastminute.com are not liable for the amount you feel that you are owed.

Your query has been forwarded onto Monarch Airlines and asked that they respond to you directly.

I apologise that I cannot be of any further assistance.

Yours sincerely,

Charli Ambrose
Customer Relations Executive

---------------------------------------------------

So, Charli feels that they can wash their hands of all of this, hence my reply as follows -

--------------------------------------

Charli,
THIS EMAIL IS SENT WITHOUT PREJUDICE

On the basis of your response, and the obvious fact that you have failed to read and understand my complaint (as, if you had bothered to read the details you would not be asking Monarch to respond to me directly), it is quite obvious to me that you have no intention of dealing with this complaint and taking ownership, I will therefore file online at the Small Claims Court services this week, and allow them to deal with the claim through your legal team.

By return mail, please supply me with the Specific Named person within Lastminute.com who legal notices need to be served on, along with full address details. If I do not receive the details as requested from you within the next 24 hours, I will file with the court services detailing your name as the Lastminute representative along with the address details at Victoria Gate.

I appreciate that you are possibly not the person legally responsible at Lastminute, but without an indication from you of another persons details, with you being the person who has decided to not deal with this claim, I will have no other choice but to reference you in my claim, this will of course mean that you will be the one that the court will serve papers on, so it is in your best interest to provde the details as requested.

Please note, this is not a course of action that I wanted to take, but I must assure you that I have the resourses and ability to carry this through to its conclusion.

Mr Armsoft

-----------------------------------------------------------

Any views on any of the above would be appreciated
Thanks

Yvette Graham · 20th November 2008, 11:04

Monarch are just not set up for longhaul - their fleet capacity cannot often fly the time required without stopovers for refuelling ..... also their planes are too small to accommodate anyone more than the size of a 5 year old .

Just don't use them on longhaul - will ensure you have a better holiday believe me!!!

foolishgirl · 20th November 2008, 11:52

For future reference there is a website set up by Skytrax that monitors airline quality (google it), displays reviews of airlines, rates them & provides info. on seats etc.

Upload your experiences of Monarch for the benefit of others & email Monarch a copy of the url. Consumer pressure is often more effective than legislation particularly when it involves international agencies.

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