Why let your bank keep your money? Calculating your charges claim

[photoman]

Bankfodder, and all.

I agree wholeheartedly that you should also make claim for the additional interest the bank has applied/deprived you of due to the charges.

By also accounting for such interest, you often quite quickly reach a point whereby you can actually see that any subsequent "overdraft excess" or "limit breach" that then later gave rise to charges arose solely due to accumulated earlier charges and the interest upon such.

I would even suggest considering going even further.

Many people are also forced at some point to take consolidation loans with their banks in order to repay "borrowing".
.... borrowing that is often solely or mostly originally made up of charges and interest upon such !!

The calculations are admittedly a bit more involved and difficult to determine, but for anyone who makes the effort the results can be quite an eye opener !!

The chain of events would go something like this:

1/ You incur bank charges.

2/ The bank applies/deprives you of account interest as a result.

3/ The bank then puts you under pressure to take out a consolidation loan, to repay your existing borrowing .... but we contend that this existing borrowing consisted either solely or largely of charges and interest upon your original account.

4/ The consolidation loan then incurs yet more interest.

5/ ALSO...the account you make the loan installments from, then incurs/ is deprived of further interest due to making the monthly loan repayments.

6/ As a result, the account that the installments are made from then goes overdrawn..... often due largely to the loan installments... thus incurring even more charges, and interest.

........ and the whole cycle starts all over again.


I am currently working on modifying some of Mindzais sheets to try and create a set of (preferably a single) spreadsheets that would more easily allow the calculation of such a chain of events.

I am no mathematician or accountant though, and work on such is slow, so if anyone else more competent is interested in helping me then post up here or get in touch?

Such spreadsheets are currently being worked on in "Open Office", which is free to download software from the web, meaning that you wouldn't need to buy any software to use them, and also means they can be universally used on either PC or Mac.

PM

[ohoh4312]

I have been discussing this issue with BF, and looking at formulas etc to cover this issue.

However, it is vitally important to note that we are NOT talking about Contractual and/or Compounded Interest.

It is simply about recovering the portion of interest charged that relates to the charges applied.

My initial thoughts on this are as follows:

Current Overdraft Rate 1,000 (a)

Charges applied on (date) total - 60.00 (b)
Interest applied on same date = 5.25 (c)
Interest on charges = ((c)/(a))*(b) = 0.31

So then your running total = 60.31 (d)

Next set of charges applied = 75.00 (e)
Interest charged = 6.75 (f)
Interest on charges = ((f)/(a))*((d)+(e)) = 0.91

Once your running total is equal to or greater than the overdraft figure, in this case 1,000, then you would remove the formula and simply enter the full amount of the interest charge.

Gosh, it seemed so simple, but still looks really complicated when you lay it out like that. But on the spreadsheet the formulas would be embedded so that the calculations would be automatic.

Please discuss, dissect and dismiss as necessary!

[BankFodder]

I agree completely that interest paid on consolidation loans should be claimed back in its entirety.

It is really quite disgusting that the banks have taken people's money, put them in debt and then obliged them to borrow more money simply to repay their own money!!

My problem is that I am not too clear at the moment as to how to express this as a head of damage so that it falls within a conventional cause of action.

However, I am sure that it will come to me.

[BankFodder]

Originally Posted by dad

Hi,

One of the benefits of 'Halliday v HBOS' is that Mr Justice Underhill said quite clearly what you are entitled to:



This is a binding ruling of the High Court which County Court Judges MUST follow.

The figures in Halliday were calculated using 'vamps' spreadsheet discussed above and were accepted by the Judge.

Dad

Absolutely.
The only difficulty is reminding people to include their interest paid or to convince them that it is worthwhile

[woody1066]

Originally Posted by Sunshine54

Hi I used the spreadsheet from this site and it calculated easily everything required. I had already obtained my bank statements using the template request letter from this site (see a pattern lol)
I had a reply from Barclays saying that they have registered my complaint, if I go to court they will immediately request a stay until the High Court decision is known.

Is it best for me to start proceedings anyway - I didn't realise that the 8% was only added once the Court Claim was underway.

Can anyone give me a link to that spreadsheet please?

[Bookworm]

Originally Posted by BankFodder

The OFT has already pronounced on a "fair rate" of £12.

Sorry, but no they haven't, and I am a bit surprised you should say that, maybe you should re-read the OFT statement of april 06? In fact, the OFT very clearly stated that their "threshold intervention" of £12 did NOT mean that a charge of £12 was fair and they very specifically said that ONLY a court could decided what constituted a fair charge, therefore:

The only thing is that it may not be possible to claim back CC charges if they were actually levied at the OFT capped rate of £12.

I think that you will only be able to recover those charges which were lvied at a higher rate.

is factually very incorrect and as far as I can see, as long as people know to claim it all back, the CC pay it all back. Oh sure, they TRY to say that they don't have to repay it all but if people stand firm, they do get the totality of it back. Speaking for myself, I have had both higher and £12 charges back from Barclaycard and Capital1 (+ interest levied on those charges + s.69, of course), and I am not aware of CC companies going to court to argue the toss (apart from Citi maybe, but let's face it, they always were awkward beggars ).

The courts have been happy to stay CC charges claims as well.

To be fair, generally mainly if the claim is placed through MCOL, then again, I don't doubt some judges can't see the difference or can't be bothered to.

So my summary would be at odds to yours and I'd encourage people to keep on claiming the totality of their CC charges, whether be the £12 or more and stand firm and when the CC companies try to negotiate for the difference, confront them with the April '06 OFT statement as quoted above. And don't forget to add the interest on those charges, of course.

[BankFodder]

Originally Posted by Bookworm

Sorry, but no they haven't, and I am a bit surprised you should say that, maybe you should re-read the OFT statement of april 06? In fact, the OFT very clearly stated that their "threshold intervention" of £12 did NOT mean that a charge of £12 was fair and they very specifically said that ONLY a court could decided what constituted a fair charge, therefore:
is factually very incorrect and as far as I can see, as long as people know to claim it all back, the CC pay it all back. Oh sure, they TRY to say that they don't have to repay it all but if people stand firm, they do get the totality of it back. Speaking for myself, I have had both higher and £12 charges back from Barclaycard and Capital1 (+ interest levied on those charges + s.69, of course), and I am not aware of CC companies going to court to argue the toss (apart from Citi maybe, but let's face it, they always were awkward beggars ).


To be fair, generally mainly if the claim is placed through MCOL, then again, I don't doubt some judges can't see the difference or can't be bothered to.

So my summary would be at odds to yours and I'd encourage people to keep on claiming the totality of their CC charges, whether be the £12 or more and stand firm and when the CC companies try to negotiate for the difference, confront them with the April '06 OFT statement as quoted above. And don't forget to add the interest on those charges, of course.

You are quite right. My mistake. The OFT capped rate was the threshold rate.

However I fully expect that after the Test case, that the banks will argue - and that the courts will accept that the OFT threshold should also be treated as the fair rate.

We have yet to see what the OFT fair rate for bank charges will be. If it happens to be £12 then I expect that the CC cap will become the defacto fair rate.

I'm all for everyone claiming everything and pushing as far as possible - hence the existence of this site.

However, up to the beginning of the test case there was an exquisite madness which took the banks and the courts by suprise. No one tried to control it bevause no one expected that it would get out of hand in the way that it did.

Now that some calm has been imposed on the situation, I am sure that they won't want it to getout of hand again.

In particular, the courts have said that UTCCR applies and that penalties do not.

This gives a structure which was never apparent before. I don't expect that the OFT or the banks or the courts will want to let go of this.

I'm not aware that a fair rate under the UTCCR can't be assesed by the courts. It is not the OFT which has exclusive authority to do this. In fact the OFT fair rate is really just a recomendation - but which you can be certainl will be accepted by the courts unless thee is some real evidence to the contrary.

If the OFt bank charges rate is set at less than £12 then the CC companies will keep very quiet.
If the OFT chargs rate is set higher than £12 then there will be bleating by the CC companies for the OFt to re-assess the rate.

Anyone who has been charged more than £12 CC charges should go and claim back everything - including related interest.
However, I don't expect that charges which have been levied at the £12 rate will be recoverable anymore.

However, do go ahead and try. I think that £12 is still very excessive and I owuld be very pleased if people succeeeded in getting this money back too

[Sammythebest]

Thankyou for that information Bank Fodder. I have put a claim in for £5k for oh bank account. I have had the usual back saying we are not doing anything until the HOL ruling and please do not sue me. I was going to leave it but I think the 8% interest does add up and will start an action.

[yourbank]

Originally Posted by Sammythebest

Thankyou for that information Bank Fodder. I have put a claim in for £5k for oh bank account. I have had the usual back saying we are not doing anything until the HOL ruling and please do not sue me. I was going to leave it but I think the 8% interest does add up and will start an action.

BankFodder is not just talking about 8% but the interest on the charges themselves over the period of time. It is not a new idea, it's something that has been advocated all the time here and on other forums, ie you claim charges plus interest on them plus 8% until it is paid back. If it's with the bank it is already earning 8% but if you didn't add the interest that was charged on the charges themselves then that is the whole point of the thread which is to get that back as well, even though I have never understood working out the interest(never have done despite a tutorial on MSN yesterday from someone I do need that bit explaining as though I was a two year old, however.).

[lexis200]

I'm a little iffy with bank charges, so can anyone tell me if they relate to charges you get for a)going overdrawn and b)on a business account please?

I was recently charged the best part of £70 over 2 months by Abbey business (thought my balance was at £0 so didn't check statements). I'm obviously rather miffed by this, but I don't know if it being a business account precludes doing anything about it?

Thanks - and sorry if this is the wrong place to ask.

[photoman]

Originally Posted by lexis200

I'm a little iffy with bank charges, so can anyone tell me if they relate to charges you get for a)going overdrawn and b)on a business account please?

I was recently charged the best part of £70 over 2 months by Abbey business (thought my balance was at £0 so didn't check statements). I'm obviously rather miffed by this, but I don't know if it being a business account precludes doing anything about it?

Thanks - and sorry if this is the wrong place to ask.

Lex,

Yes, the bank charges issue is about charges for going overdrawn or having payments returned.
See the link to the business claims forum in my signature (in my earlier post) for information regards business accounts.
In short, Business account holders are being left somewhat in the cold regards the whole OFT business.
This is because Business accounts are NOT covered by The UTCCR, and so up until the OFT case have had to rely upon claiming charges being penalties under common law.
Unfortunately, the concept of penalties under common law has now been pretty much ruled out by the OFT case, and as they are not covered by or have any statutory protection under the UTCCR or other, are seemingly now left without a cause of action.
Some members of CAG are working behind the scenes at trying to find new ways to contend these charges for business claimants, so keep an eye on the business forums for updates and news.

All the best
Pm

[lexis200]

Thanks photoman

[ohoh4312]

Draft Spreadsheet with info boxes if anyone would like to take a look:

[Stubie]

All,

Thanks for the information, I hadn't realised the implications of waiting for the HOL decision.

Immediately I read this thread, I posted off an Subject Access Request to my bank (Halifax). I have now had the application returned to me twice for trivial errors in my application. Today I will try a third time after receiving further clarification from their customer confusion department.

Is anyone else having similar problems. Is it possible that the banks have wised up to the implications laid out in this thread and are now employing "mischief" to let the clock run down on the test case, and, in so doing, avoid the statutory interest portion of any new claim?

[Sammythebest]

I didnt put in a subject access request because I knew it would delay it. I have been through all the on line charge notifications for the last 2 years, ( there was no problem before that) and submitted it.

Thanks for you input your bank.

[Stubie]

Originally Posted by Sammythebest

I didnt put in a subject access request because I knew it would delay it. I have been through all the on line charge notifications for the last 2 years, ( there was no problem before that) and submitted it.

Thanks for you input your bank.

My circumstances are different, unfortunately. I've got 2 years worth from the online statements but most of my charges are from 2002 - 2005 range. I am now regretting not keeping my statements but hey ho.

Anyone know if there is a likely cut off date? I know the HOL are due to commence consideration on 21st June. Will this route close once the HOL ruling is published? If I read this thread right, it will but is my interpretation correct?

[Sammythebest]

I wouldnt have thought there is a cut off date. If the HOL have a funny turn and overturn the appeal judgement, I am still taking it legal...I will take mine to the House Of Lords!

[Stubie]

Originally Posted by ohoh4312

Draft Spreadsheet with info boxes if anyone would like to take a look:

I will have a play tonight and reply.

Unfortunately I'm having difficulty downloading it at present but I think this is my problem rather than yours.

Will I be able to open this in Excel? I don't have open Office, although I know I can download it.

[the_shadow]

Originally Posted by Stubie

I will have a play tonight and reply.

Unfortunately I'm having difficulty downloading it at present but I think this is my problem rather than yours.

Will I be able to open this in Excel? I don't have open Office, although I know I can download it.

Opens in Excel fine although I've not had time to play with it either

S.

[Stubie]

Originally Posted by the_shadow

Opens in Excel fine although I've not had time to play with it either

S.

Cheers Shadow

Looking forward to an evening of bank charges. I've gotta do it soon as expect to be going abroad soon.

Yeeesh