Pub Landlady has stolen my DJ Eqipment

[Chris1933]

Hi all,
Right bit of a strange on this and I'm not sure how to proceed. I had 4 pubs before realising that it wasn't for us, however, because I was a electrician by trade I, over a period of 2 years built up a very unique and expensive Digital Karaoke/Disco/Game/Entertainment machine. All in all it cost me over 10K.

When I left the pub trade and moved into a house with my wife it became a problem because she was always nagging me that it was taking too much room up in the back bedroom Anyway not being able to bring myself to selling it, I rented it at £65 PW to a local landlady and then friend.

After only 6 weeks and no weekly payments from her, she and her partner seperated. At this point Knowing the pub trade very well I knew I had to get my equipment out as the pub seemed unstable. The landlady happily agreed but asked if she could borrow the effects lights for a short period.

I agreed (and she bought me a few pints) but informed her that I will probably have to sell the equipment (see above) and when I do I will need the lights back.

At this Point it became apparant that the External HDD with all the songs and software on was missing. To cut a long story short she claims her Ex has taken it (probably so) and is refusing to do anything about it.

This all ended in a big argument after time the other saturday - The result was that she barred me and physically pushed me out thepub when I refused to leave without either payment or equipment. The police was called (by her) and the cheeky cow even had the ordasity to acuse me of assult!!! Needless to say the police didn't think so and even warned her about wasting police time.

I am now barred from the pub and have no way of getting my equipment or money back, i don't really want to have to take her to court but I will if need be as she is acting completly irresponsably.

Sorry about the lenght of this, below is the letter I'm thinking of sending her - before I do does any of you good people think I have a leg to stand on as there are no written agreements only verbal. (It is worth noting that she is the type of person who would just throw a summons to court without even reading it)

Thanks Guys (n girlzs) - Chris

[Chris1933]

Name and address edited

30th September, 2008



Intention to proceed to County Court


It is regretful that communications have now reached an impasse, consequently taking into account the amount of time involved I have no alternative but to pursue the matter of your outstanding dept of £2150.00 by means of obtaining a county court judgment against you/your business.

All previous correspondence and communication regarding this dept and relevant repayment options was *Without Prejudice* therefore I will be claiming the full value of the equipment £2150.00 plus court costs.

It is now my intention to submit the relevant N1 form to the court, however I will abstain from doing so for a period of 72 hours.

If full and final payment is received within this time or the equipment is returned to myself in the perfect working condition it was when supplied I will conclude this matter as resolved and no further action will be taken. If you are in a position to return the equipment please email me at @consumeractiongroup.co.u k to arrange a mutually convenient time for collection. The equipment must be boxed or packaged so it is ready to be transported immediately.

If you continue to not honour your dept and no remittance is received I will claim the full amount, statuary interest at 8% including £0.08p per day whilst the amount remains unpaid and all relevant costs incurred by myself.

It is not acceptable, nor is it a defence that the equipment was removed by your partner when your relationship dissolved. The equipment was made available for use to your business and as licensee & DPS you are in day to day control of said business and ultimately responsible for any internal actions.

Once a judgement is obtained a distress warrant may be levied against you/your business for the recovery by means of bailiffs who could seize your possessions for sale at auction. Typically, items sold at these types of auctions sell for 10% of their purchase value.

If it is not economical to recover the dept by this method I may apply for a statuary demand against you/your business. This would bankrupt you/your business and would include the sale of your possessions, releasing any equity to repay the dept. Cost would inevitably be incurred whilst this is proceeding and would be added to your final balance.

Due to you wilfully refusing to honour previous verbal agreements I am not prepared to enter into reciprocal correspondence regarding this matter. I have previously been fair and reasonable, now I am making it quite clear what is required to prevent any further action.

I eagerly await your immediate response


Chris edited

[MrShed]

Couple of thoughts.

- Who was the equipment lent to specifically - "her" or "them"?
- Spell check the letter
- 72 hours is unreasonable - 7 days would be better
- Would remove the line talking about "without prejudice" entirely

[Chris1933]

Wow Mr Shed - You are quick

- The equipment was lent to both of them i suppose as they were both managers (or incharge?) at the time
- I did spell check - what did you pick up on? (I'm rubbish at writing - give me a re-wire anyday)
- No problem with the 7 days, glad you mentioned it I thought 3 days was ok.
- I gave her plently of options to repay me, I am a reasonable guy and if she had said she was broke and could afford to pay me only £200 I would have taken it. My anger stems from the way she has just shrugged it off as "oh well it's not my problem". I thought the "without prejudise" would show the court that I have tried to settle this fairly.

Whats your views Mr Shed?

[MrShed]

The problem you have is that as you say it probably wasnt her herself who damaged the equipment. however, if you lent it to her, then she has a duty of care basically to look after the equipment, so that should be OK.

Spellings - statuary(statutory), and I saw another one but cant spot it now so maybe just having a "senile moment"

The reason I say remove the "without prejudice" bit is because it comes across that a previous offer has been made and accepted. In addition, you cannot recipricolly(spelling, I know ) go back and make something "without prejudice" if it was not made so at the time. that said, irrelevant in this case, but you can make it clear that you have tried to negotiate with her to no avail without including this line.

I think that you must have a pretty strong case in court. However, I would strongly advise that you make them JOINT defendants rather than pursuing her only.

[Chris1933]

Thanks Mr Shed

I'll make the changes and send the letter, I'll update when I hear back from her or not, as the case may be.

Thanks for telling me about the "without prejudise" - I would have made myself look a complete prat.

P.S If it does go to court what happens if she simply says "Prove It"? Would witness statements from the many locals I know help in proving that they saw the equipment (and used it) on many occations.

[MrShed]

I think it would be foolish for her defence to be that you had not lent them the equipment, and it is highly unlikely. Small claims court is on the "balance of evidence" - in other words, who the judge believes. therefore, you do not have to PROVE beyond reasonable doubt that you lent her the equipment.

That said, any such proof can never be a bad thing

Do you have her partners address also?

[Chris1933]

Unfortunatly No, I don't know where he is

That the upsetting thing about this whole thing, When they first took the pub over (6 months ago) my wife and I became very good friends with them and we helped and advised where we could.

Weve seen it time and time again where couples take on a pub and think its like when they go out drinking in a pub. THEY ARE WRONG AND THE ARGUMENTS START WITHIN WEEKS when the novilty wears off.

Pubs make or break relationships. I was only engaged to Danielle when we took our first pub and it nearly split us up, luckily after the initial arguments we formed a routine and it cemented our relationship and we ended up getting married - she is my best friend as well as my wife

Anyway, i started to notice the "atmosphere" between the landlady and landlord and had a quiet word with them. They gave a good front to the customers but I know how it works.

Within a few months, sure enough, he met a woman local and buggered off into the night and nobody's seen him since. (sad but like I say, I've seen it too many times - hense my original statement about me removing my equipment because the pub is unstable)

Does this change anything Mr Shed???

[MrShed]

It would be much better if you could get him as a joint defendant - but it shouldnt change things too dramatically IMO.

[NoMandate]

Knowing someone who has been in a similar position (band equipment being held to ransom), I agree with the advice above, and also suggest that you make sure you have all the receipts/proofs of purchase for the equipment readily available. Also, do you have any photographs of the equipment in the pub?
It's to be hoped that this is resolved before court becomes necessary.

[Chris1933]

Hi Nomandate
I can account for about £1400 of the equipment she has "lost" - I built the system up over 2 years and it is very unique and a lot of the components, equipment etc were swaps or favours

Not that I am well versed in legal terms, I think if it gets to tecnicalities within the law i will be pretty buggered. (I should know better than to lend to people without proper agreements!!!)

I hope she either finds her ex and gets it back and forwards it onto me with the lights or if i give her enought rope she will hang herself if it gets to ocurt and her defence is "oh well - not my problem so and so took it"

The madening thing is, if she had just said - "Oh Chris, I am so sorry, i will do my best to get it back" I wouldn't have been best chuffed but i wouldn't have made a big issue out of it.

Anyway thanks for reply, Out of interest did you get your ransom back???

[MrShed]

It shouldnt get to technicality of laws. Small claims court is designed for "laymen" - basically the story is relayed, by both sides, the judge decides who they believe, AND if from the events they believe whether any law has been broken.

[enamae]

Originally Posted by Chris1933

Name and address edited

30th September, 2008



Intention to proceed to County Court


It is regretful that communications have now reached an impasse, consequently taking into account the amount of time involved I have no alternative but to pursue the matter of your outstanding debt of £2150.00 by means of obtaining a county court judgement against you/your business.

All previous correspondence and communication regarding this debt and relevant repayment options was *Without Prejudice* therefore I will be claiming the full value of the equipment £2150.00 plus court costs.

It is now my intention to submit the relevant N1 form to the court, however I will abstain from doing so for a period of 72 hours.

If full and final payment is received within this time or the equipment is returned to myself in the perfect working condition it was when supplied I will conclude this matter as resolved and no further action will be taken. If you are in a position to return the equipment please email me at @consumeractiongroup.co.u k to arrange a mutually convenient time for collection. The equipment must be boxed or packaged so it is ready to be transported immediately.

If you continue to not honour your debt and no remittance is received I will claim the full amount, statutory interest at 8% including £0.08p per day whilst the amount remains unpaid and all relevant costs incurred by myself.

It is not acceptable, nor is it a defence that the equipment was removed by your partner when your relationship dissolved. The equipment was made available for use to your business and as licensee & DPS you are in day to day control of said business and ultimately responsible for any internal actions.

Once a judgement is obtained a distress warrant may be levied against you/your business for the recovery by means of bailiffs who could seize your possessions for sale at auction. Typically, items sold at these types of auctions sell for 10% of their purchase value.

If it is not economical to recover the debt by this method I may apply for a statutory demand against you/your business. This would bankrupt you/your business and would include the sale of your possessions, releasing any equity to repay the debt. Cost would inevitably be incurred whilst this is proceeding and would be added to your final balance.

Due to you wilfully refusing to honour previous verbal agreements I am not prepared to enter into reciprocal correspondence regarding this matter. I have previously been fair and reasonable, now I am making it quite clear what is required to prevent any further action.

I eagerly await your immediate response


Chris edited

Amendments in blue

[NoMandate]

Hi Chris

Yes, we did. It didn't get to court stages, as we were advised by an ex-staff member that the taxman wasn't aware of a lot of the money being taken in the pub, so we went for a 'you give us our stuff back and we won't ring the tax office' approach. Admittedly, taking a flyer on this was a risk, but it must have been true, because we got our gear back sharpish. However it must be remembered that this was a fairly big place in a large city which we need never go near again, as opposed to a local pub, where relationships are more complex.
As Mr Shed says, technicalities are not what small claims is about, I'm just a bit of a belt and braces/forewarned is forearmed type.

[Chris1933]

Update

She did a runner !!!!!

knew she would, she did a happy hour/weekend last week - never a good sign when a pub starts getting rid of stock quickly like that - I'm well anoyed cos I was still barred

Good news is she left lights behind, and even better new landlord is a sound bloke and when i explained situ he was happy to return lights but even more better is interested in renting all equipment - yey

Told him if he looks after them he can keep them for a short while whilst he decides on equipment.

I'll get agreement in writing this time

Oh. . . and not barred anymore

[Rooster-UK]

I'm glad you've come out on top.