Chip & PIN again

JimmyTheOne · 19th June 2006, 23:23

Readers might like to listen to today's You and Yours for some cases where people have lost money through fraudulent use of their Chip&PIN and had the experience of the bank refusing to pay up.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/youandyours/listenagain/monday.shtml

((The articel is 28 minutes into the broadcast))

""In France they can now clone chip to chip""

Sandara Quinn (the lady representing the card industry) and Nigel Evans MP failed to mention that consumers dont have to have PINs if they don't want them.

Chip & Signature cards are available for those who simply don't trust PINs

fivelaws · 19th June 2006, 23:35

I read a story a while ago (Nov 2004) about a bloke in the UK who had an entry added to his credit reference which stated that he wouldn't accept any claims against him for fraudulent loan/credit applications unless the application was accompanied by his fingerprints;

Nothing the banks can do about it apparently. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/11...ghts_id_theft/

Edit : Just noticed this is in the wrong forum... (mods?)

StoneLaughter · 20th June 2006, 00:02

My bank have refused to issue a chip and signature card unless I am "physically unable" to use "chip and pin".

I've a mind to write to them and say "I am physically unable to use chip and pin. Please issue a chip and signature card".

They would get short shrift from me asking for a doctor's report... LOL!!!

fivelaws · 20th June 2006, 00:13

Quote:

"physically unable" to use "chip and pin".

That would have to be a novel disability wouldn't it? You can hold a pen, but you can't press buttons on a keypad?

Maybe ultra-sensitive fingertips?

Made up disease: Hyper Sensitive Meta Carpal Syndrome (HSMCS). I'm sure you could fake a webpage on this "appalling and painful" condition...

StoneLaughter · 20th June 2006, 00:22

LOL. Actually, any details about my medical history are completely confidential and they have no right of access to them. So all they have to go on is my word. And if they don't take it I shall lumber into action the might of the CAG Team of 30,000 users...

Leo1 · 20th June 2006, 14:24

So shops and stores can still accept payment with signatures? They have been lying to us then since 14 Feb saying the payments will only be accepted with chip & pin?

JimmyTheOne · 20th June 2006, 15:12

No the shops have never lied, but the card industry is a bit economical with the truth and how the sPIN it.

When a retailer is presented with a Chip & Signature card they can't tell if it's Chip & PIN or Chip & Signature until the chip is read, and either a prompt to enter a PIN appears OR a transaction slip is produced for the cardholder to sign in the normal manner.

Blame the Chip & PIN people, not the retailers.

thewifeandI · 20th June 2006, 15:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimmyTheOne

No the shops have never lied, but the card industry is a bit economical with the truth and how the sPIN it.

When a retailer is presented with a Chip & Signature card they can't tell if it's Chip & PIN or Chip & Signature until the chip is read, and either a prompt to enter a PIN appears OR a transaction slip is produced for the cardholder to sign in the normal manner.

Blame the Chip & PIN people, not the retailers.

The quick way to get a C&S card - enter your PIN incorrectly three times. The card will be PIN blocked and only work with a signature. This happened to me (admittedly prior to 14th Feb) when I forgot the PIN. I'm not certain if it is the case now though.

StoneLaughter · 20th June 2006, 16:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by thewifeandI

The quick way to get a C&S card - enter your PIN incorrectly three times. The card will be PIN blocked and only work with a signature. This happened to me (admittedly prior to 14th Feb) when I forgot the PIN. I'm not certain if it is the case now though.

The only problem with that is that I cannot then use it as a cashpoint card...

thewifeandI · 20th June 2006, 16:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by StoneLaughter

The only problem with that is that I cannot then use it as a cashpoint card...

I thought I'd read somewhere that ATMs used the stripe still - I might be wrong though.

StoneLaughter · 20th June 2006, 16:19

...but isn't the PIN still locked whether it's chip or stripe? My PIN's the same whichever system I'm using.

JimmyTheOne · 20th June 2006, 16:33

Absolutely correct it does deny access to cash from ATMs to you and the bad guys. You can get cashback with your debit card only at major retailers or over the counter at a branch using your signature. Therefore you don't have to be concerned about PIN misuse if you've not got one.

What I do personally, is I have a card (PIN or Signature operated )savings account which I keep low amounts of cash in for everyday use. The card can be used at ALL ATMs, but as it doesn't have a Visa or Mastercard not in shops.

callumsgran · 20th June 2006, 16:50

not all retailers are using chip and pin anyway, i had to sign y'day when buying some fish food at a garden centre!

fivelaws · 20th June 2006, 17:11

Quote:

not all retailers are using chip and pin anyway

God help them. If they haven't upgraded their swipecard thingy, they are liable for any fraudulent use...

blueskies · 21st June 2006, 15:12

Chip and PIN is yet another way for the banks to pass the buck to the customer for fraud.

Banks are liable for any unauthorised transactions on an account unless they can prove that the customer has been negligent. With a signature on the back of the card anyone could learn it and it was hard to prove that the customer was negligent. With a PIN the card theif would have had to see a PIN being entered, hey presto, customer at fault, customer liable.
Card fraud is falling slowly, banks liability for said card fraud has fallen sharply.

More 'champagne for the shareholders meeting'.

thewifeandI · 21st June 2006, 15:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by blueskies

Card fraud is falling slowly, banks liability for said card fraud has fallen sharply.

More 'champagne for the shareholders meeting'.

And interest rates that 'are high to cover the cost of fraud' are still not coming down...

JimmyTheOne · 25th June 2006, 11:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by fivelaws

God help them. If they haven't upgraded their swipecard thingy, they are liable for any fraudulent use...

Retailers base their decision to opt for Chip & PIN or remain with the old system based on risk and cost.

In the same was as you can make hopefully an informed decision on whether to opt for Chipped cards with PINs or Chipped cards with Signatures based on your needs. (Do you fell safer using a PIN, can you meet PIN T&Cs (the card industry cant), if a disputed transaction arises where a PIN is used are you confident you know what to do?)

Think about it. Visa/MasterCard etc openly allow retailers / other countries to opt in or out of Chip & PIN. Yet they fail to tell UK consumers they can opt out of PIN.

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