Been asked to pay back a short till?

[Jim0203]

I used to work in a pub where the tills were down (i.e., didn't have as much money in them as the computer thought they should) and the staff were told they had to pay the money back amongst themselves.

If any company asks you to do this, and it is not laid down in your contract, then do not do it. I spoke to the head office of the pub I was working for (A John Barras pub, part of the Spirit Group who I recommend you never give your patronage to, if you have a choice) who told me that it was not "standard practice". I got suspicious when my manager told me to pay the money back in cash and when I asked her to take it out of my wages (so I didn't end up being taxed twice on the money) she told me she couldn't do it!

If anyone who is given more power by the system than you does anything that seems a bit illegal, it probably is - challenge them!

[Bookworm]

Have a look at this:

Special Rules For Retail Workers

There are special rules relating to cash shortages or stock deficiencies for people working in retail employment (shop workers, bar staff etc.). If you are involved in selling or supplying goods to the public or fellow workers, or receiving money in this capacity, these rules apply to you. They apply even if you only do so on odd occasions, or are not directly involved in the sale or supply of goods, but handle money. For example, a cashier working in a staff canteen could be covered by these rules.
Maximum deductions for retail workers
If your employer has reached agreement with you, either in writing or in your contract, that a deduction can be made for shortages, then s/he must: -

• notify you in writing of the total amount owed before taking any money.
• make a demand in writing for payment on a pay day.
• any demand must not exceed 10% of the gross amount of that pay packet because of shortages, although similar deductions can be made from future pay packets. (Note: the 10% restriction does not apply to deductions from a final pay packet).
• make any such deductions within twelve months of discovering the shortages.

What does this mean in practice?
If you are a shop worker selling goods, and your contract of employment allows your employer to recover till cash shortfalls, then your employer must first let you know of the shortfall and the full amount owing. The maximum your employer can take from one pay packet is 10% of your gross pay (i.e before Income Tax and National Insurance). For example, if there is a shortfall of £50, and your employer pays you £100 per week, the maximum s/he can take from your weekly salary is £10, until the shortfall is repaid (ie. in this example it would take five weeks for you to repay the shortfall to your employer).
NB: If you leave your job, and a shortfall is owed the 10% rule does NOT apply.

[seylectric]

I'm going back nearly 20 years but I used to drive for the local council bus company. Any shortfall of the money taken on any particular day was taken out of our wages.

Although this was in our contract, there was no prior notification. What particularly annoyed me was that if you were "up", you didn't get the money back - they argued that it wasn't your money, we argued that it wasn't theirs either! Eventually they did concede that if you were up, the difference would be deducted.

What was particularly galling was that at times you could have been £20 or so down on the day - almost impossible, you would have to make a LOT of mistakes to be even a couple of pounds down, but this happened regularly. Averaging between £5-£10 down per week was not unusual.

[sparky37]

i work for a company were we still write out contracts with customers and so on occasion the maths let us down or we write down the wrong price for the goods on the sales contract.

do these rules still apply in this case?

[Alison82]

How dare they even ask! It's not you problem if their till is short unless it's your business

[Janet-M]

I use to run pubs and yes if the tills where down the employees had to make the money up. I did not think it was fair that I took the till print out , took the till away , counted the money and it was on my word alone decided if people lost a part of their wages.I can not see a manager lying about a till shortage but sometimes I had to work 17 hour days so by the time it came to counting tills mistakes can be made .I always counted the tills infront of a member of staff who had worked on it and if it was short they was given the chance to count it themselves.I would advise anyone who is being asked to make up the shortfalls on a till, on a regular basis, to demand to be there when the tills are checked.

[lookinforinfo]

Originally Posted by Alison82

How dare they even ask! It's not you problem if their till is short unless it's your business

What if the person on the till had stolen the amount that was short? Why should
the employer stand for that shortage? And every time there is a shortage, that
thought is on the employers mind. But it is usually very difficult to prove.
Over the course of a year, if the staff are honest, then the shorts and overs shouldn't be that far out. However there will always be more shortages as if you short change someone, they will invariably notice. But while they may also notice
that they have been overpaid, they don't always mention it! In any event, any
overall shortages will be offset against their taxable income.
On another point, I cannot believe that anyone who was not present during the cashing up
would be expected to make up any shortfall.

[john]

i pressume then that if the tills are up the extra money is handed to relevent staff.lol

[buzz]

My Wife used to work in a petrol station.

If anyone did a "drive-off" without paying, then the money was deducted from her wages.
Also, if someone had gone a bit over the amount of fuel, eg, £10.01, quite often the customer assumed they could just pay the £10.00. If the odd penny was asked for, sometimes the customer became abusive and insulting."Well, it's only a penny"!
The garage was in a very busy area and at the end of the week, all the odd pennies added up to quite a lot.Think about this next time you buy your fuel. You may not be the only one that day to have done this.
This was also deducted from the wage.

One day, a customer left his money as he was in a rush and there was a big queue.
When my wife checked, he had given her a £20 note for £10 of fuel.
She was honest and told the manager.
Guess what, she didnt get to keep it.

When the till was down, she had to pay.
When it was over, the owners of the garage kept it.

Buzz

[seylectric]

Bookworm's "Special Rules" post is intersting and informative here, but it would also be interesting to test it in a court of law.

I agree that if the till is short it should not necessarily be your loss any more than if you are "up" it does not belong to the company. What happens when you "cash up" and find your till to be correct but then somebody comes back to you later and says it wasn't? Why should a company be allowed to take the money from your wages when the loss is now disputed?

For those working in petrol stations (or anywhere really) it's almost impossible to verify. Typically money is put into a container and put into a slot which drops it into a locked safe.

So what if you work the nightshift, finish at 7 a.m. and are then on holiday for a fortnight? The only way that the money could be verified in your presence is if the safe remains unopened for the next two weeks! If it's short you only have their word for it.

[Giveitback]

I've always found a fairer way is that if a till is over the extra is kept - in case the customer returns and can prove well enough that it's theirs.

If no-one returns//proves it - usual then the money is kept in a kitty. The kitty is used to make up the unders on a rolling basis.

Obviously if a till is regularly down by a biggish amount when one particular person is on, then there's something fishy. Good management should be able to track that.

[Butterbean]

Originally Posted by Giveitback

I've always found a fairer way is that if a till is over the extra is kept - in case the customer returns and can prove well enough that it's theirs.

If no-one returns//proves it - usual then the money is kept in a kitty. The kitty is used to make up the unders on a rolling basis.

Obviously if a till is regularly down by a biggish amount when one particular person is on, then there's something fishy. Good management should be able to track that.

Sensible, and fair thinking, Giveitback.

I worked in a bar when I was a student many years ago. I could never understand why I had to take part responsibility for mistakes someone else had made - we all had to cover the shortfall between us and wages were low. Those were the days before bells-and-whistles tills that did all the adding up for you, and you needed to be able to do mental arithmetic or at least have a pencil and pad handy to add a large order up. There were staff taken on who could barely add two orders together let alone six. Why they got taken on beats me. Made me wild, especially as my maths was good! So I left.

[Hedgehog]

Used to work in a nightclub in Bangor, they never made anyone pay for till shortages, but were more concerned when the till was up...especially when £10 - £20 up
In my niavety..I queried, "well surely thats a good thing?"
Appently, not!
That then meant that they suspected the til worker of not ringing in certain rounds,(Especially when told to keep the change and given £10 exactly etc) but then had not had the chance to take that money out....
Wow...I was scared of being up or down! no penalties... just a stern staring at!!

It is the employees resonability to ensurer the till reconciles this is a more then fair representation of the traditional contract (ie. you do your job and we will pay you correctly on time every time). And for your information you can not claim tax off set on missing money (tax avoidance other wise every company in the land would be missing money) under any circumstances, you pay tax on sales regardless if you have been paid or not.

[funkyparott]

I'm going to play Devil's Advokate here.

Can anyone quote the Act of Parliment or Case Law that says this is true?

I can understand to a degree they can do this if they have written a clause into your contract. However, remember you still have the Unfair Terms in Contracts you can rely upon.

When I was a kid and worked at a well known chain of supermarkets, there used to be a £10 margin of error on the tills plus or minus.

I think it is reasonable to assume that due to human error there will always be a 'reasonable' error. Of course, £10 is one thing - another amount - say £100 is completely different.

FP

[Giveitback]

Way back when, Maccy D's used to do a £1 leeway before reprimands. Of course, staff got this whether they'd taken £30 or £3000 that day, and when you're busy, you're more likely to make mistakes.

[meagain]

Originally Posted by Giveitback

Way back when, Maccy D's used to do a £1 leeway before reprimands.

Aye. When I worked there before trudging off to Uni (only to leave 4 years later without a degree! ), I managed to finish one day 95p up, to have the manager say "Oooh, you're lucky there Mr. Again. 5p more and I'd have had to record it." Small differences over £1 weren't a big deal, but they were recorded. The rule was that if you were over £1 out three times, you were down for retraining. (Of course, if you were out by £40, as a colleague of mine was, it's rather a different story) I asked what the procedure for retraining was, and the shift manager told me "I ask you if you've been retrained satisfactorily, and you say 'yes, sir'."