CCA to third debt collection agency?

[SilkySmooth]

Hi,

I will try and keep this as short and sweet as possible, I am currently claiming back charges on a number of bank accounts and was recently explaining the process to my father, he then side tracked me to tell me about a debt that goes back beyond 2000.

Basically when my parents divorced he ended up with this particular debt to pay off, it went to the first debt agency where he appeased them by making irregular but substantial payments, this wasn't enough however as the debt was passed to another agency. He then dealt with them for some two years (Citizens Advice helped arange a monthly £1 payment on the debt).

The debt has now been passed onto a third debt collection agency preparing to set up the new £1 agreement with them. I explained that I had read a little about unenforceable debts on this forum and shared what knowledge I have.

I have been searching for about two hours now to try and find the answers to both his and my own questions.

I have read a number of threads and have found the CCA letter to use plus a few modified version, so we are confident we can put that part together... if anyone can help on the below would really appreciate it...

Is there a step by step guide anywhere similar to the ones available for bank / credit card charges?

Should my father continue to make the £1 repayments or stop from the point of sending the CCA request?

I/We understand that they have 12 days to comply plus a couple of days admin time, plus 30 days before the debt becomes unenforceable. However, what if anything happens after that point? Do we need to take them to court to ensure the debt is written off?

Thanks in advance for any advice.

[PriorityOne]

I would advise your father to continue with payments until they have actually defaulted in producing the CCA document.

If you receive any paperwork from them during this time, please come back on here for advice on how to deal with it. However, if they cannot come up with the CCA document within the first time frame of 12/14 days, then they cannot collect from you without going to court. Once the time frame is completely up, come back on here anyway for advise on what to write to them following the initial default and subsequent criminal offence.

Remember the mantra :
NEVER communicate by 'phone
Send EVERYTHING by Recorded Delivery
Keep a signed copy of EVERYTHING sent

CCA request received by GDM : 4/1/07
CCA request received by Moorcroft : 4/1/07
S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) recieved by Alliance & Leicester : 3/1/07

[andrew1]

Originally Posted by SilkySmooth

Hi,

I will try and keep this as short and sweet as possible, I am currently claiming back charges on a number of bank accounts and was recently explaining the process to my father, he then side tracked me to tell me about a debt that goes back beyond 2000.

Basically when my parents divorced he ended up with this particular debt to pay off, it went to the first debt agency where he appeased them by making irregular but substantial payments, this wasn't enough however as the debt was passed to another agency. He then dealt with them for some two years (Citizens Advice helped arange a monthly £1 payment on the debt).

The debt has now been passed onto a third debt collection agency preparing to set up the new £1 agreement with them. I explained that I had read a little about unenforceable debts on this forum and shared what knowledge I have.

I have been searching for about two hours now to try and find the answers to both his and my own questions.

I have read a number of threads and have found the CCA letter to use plus a few modified version, so we are confident we can put that part together... if anyone can help on the below would really appreciate it...

Is there a step by step guide anywhere similar to the ones available for bank / credit card charges?

Should my father continue to make the £1 repayments or stop from the point of sending the CCA request?

I/We understand that they have 12 days to comply plus a couple of days admin time, plus 30 days before the debt becomes unenforceable. However, what if anything happens after that point? Do we need to take them to court to ensure the debt is written off?

Thanks in advance for any advice.

Silkysmooth, Priority One is quite right, you should CCA request the Debt Collection agency to establish that they actually have permission to collect the debt.

As you have read some of these threads on DCA's you might have noticed us talking about who owns the debt. Can you explain from the documentation received what the status of the debt is? What type of debt is it? Mortgage/loan/Creditcard/storecard? Also, is there any documentation from the Finance company informing you that the debt has been 'sold' or Assigned to a debt collection agency or are these agencies just collecting on behalf of the finance co? It will make a difference as to how they are approached.

Firstly, if you haven't already done so you should take a long hard look at the finance companys statements to find out if theres any unlawful charges. You should also look at the DCA ( Debt Collection Agency) statements to see if they have added any charges which they shouldn't have done thereby increasing the debt. I would also CCA the previous DCA's too as they should have had the proper paperwork.

When a CCA lettter goes in it states that "I do not recognise any debt to XXXX(DCA name) Ltd That statement says there is a dispute, so whilst Priority One is suggesting a safe route to avoid any unpleasant phone calls by continuing paying and £1 a month is relatively small, you are not obliged to pay anyone until they can prove, by way of sending you a copy of the executed agreement that they have the authority to ask you for money. ( It is an offence to attempt to collect monies without having the right to do so) - Otherwise I could write to you and ask for money, but you're not going to pay me are you?

Can you say which DCA's are involved? PM me if you'd rather keep it off forum. Each one has it's own identity and methods and we might be able to help you with that. Also, they are nototious for not having the documentation. If you start paying you are effectively making an arrangement which, if you fail to make a payment or two the DCA has the right to register a default or /and add interest so be careful on making arrangements. It's only a pound but it's your pound. Trying to get it back is not easy and if any agency has taken money without the proper paperwork then you can ask for it back with interest as they have taken monies under false pretences.
Stick to the CCA route for now on all the DCA's and send a Subject Access Request with a £10 PO to the original Creditor/bank and get the full picture and then you can put this all into the right perspective. You can take each step at a time. There are letters to stop phone calls too if you haven't already found them so we can take the stress out of any of this.

[SilkySmooth]

Hi,

First of all thank you both for the replies, very helpful. Below is an update on what we have done so far plus some answers to the questions.

The current DCA is called: CL Finance

My father received a letter from them on the 21st of Dec where the letter clearly states "ownership of the debt has changed hands and been assigned to CL Finance."

The original debt is for a Debenhams Store Card.

On Jan 10th we sent the following CCA request to CL Finance:

"I do not acknowledge any debt to your company. I require you to supply the following documentation before I will correspond further on this matter.

1. You must supply me with a true copy of the alleged agreement you refer to. This is my right under your obligation to supply a copy of the agreement under the legislation contained within s.78 (1) Consumer Credit Act 1974 (s.77 (1) for fixed sum credit) - your obligation also extends to providing a statement of account. I enclose a cheque made out for a £1
2. A signed true copy of the deed of assignment of the above referenced agreement that you allege exists.
3. You are notified that you are obliged to supply these documents, whether you are the original creditor or not under S189 of the CCA 1974.

Non-compliance with my request is a criminal offence under the above Act and will result in a report being submitted to the relevant statutory authorities.


As you are aware, a credit agreement that is not properly documented and signed by the customer is totally unenforceable under the CCA and therefore is a complete defence to any court claim that is issued.


Take note at this stage, that any legal action you may contemplate will be both vigorously defended and contested.


Yours Sincerely"

The cheque was enclosed (I forgot to ask my father if that had been cashed) and letter sent recorded delivery on the morning of the 10th.

On Jan 16th CL Finance replied:

"We aknowledge your request and have requested the information you require. The documents will be forwarded in due course."

This leads me to beleive that despite their original claim of "ownership" that they are in fact just collecting and the debt has remained with Debenhams. Otherwise they wouldn't need to request the information from anyone.

So allowing them 14 days from the date of our letter, the time runs out on the 24th of January and we are not sure what the next step is.

Sarah, thanks for the detailed response, we have checked through past statements and there are no charges directly from Debenhams on the account. Also at this stage we won't be chasing the other 2 DCA's, the first one because my father did not keep any of the paperwork and the second one because they would not have added any charges (as soon as it was passed onto them my father was already getting help from the CAB so the £1 arrangement was always paid).

Also we have left the £1 arrangement in place with CL Finance, the first payment was taken two days ago.

Phew, that was a lot of typing

Any advice on the next steps greatly appreciated.

[andrew1]

Well done Silkysmooth, I wasn't a born typist either!

Okay, you have done well. There are a number of things here to consider. You have discovered Debenhams have not addedcharges, that's good, but have you looked at your credit files yet to see if there are any defaults?

Next, you say your father paid a 'substantial amount' to one of the dca's. The reason I said CCA them was becasue if the debt was sold to them or they were chasing a debt for which they had no copy of the original agreement then they have committed an offence and you can ask for the money back, but before you do.... What I would like you to do is call Debenhams and ask them what happened to the debt after they released it. Which agency did they use first and was it sold at that point or were the dca just collectors, basically just getting a trail of where the debt has passed through until now,what the status was ( sold or just collecting and then seeing who was paid what and with what authority).

Generally, we are finding dca's acting completely outside the law by not having the correct legal information to come chasing you and they receive your money when they shouldn't. People are now claiming back money from those who ought not have collected it and once the debt is sold this is all profit for the dca as they buy the debt for about 7-12% of the debt value, so it's in their interest to be a pain in the preverbrial!

CL have invariably bought the debt, but just as iI mentioned above, they are saying they have to go find the paperwork. Legally, they should have the paperwork BEFORE they chase you and like all the rest they don't have it, so let the cca period continue. If they haven't replied by tomorrow then they will require thier court order to enforce the debt after another 1 month its a criminal offence they have committed so report them to TS and then write to them asking for all the money you have paid them as they have no legal right to ask you for money. (plus interest!)

[SilkySmooth]

Hey,

Been a while, thanks to everyone for the follow ups on this thread... just to recap....

On 10th of Jan we sent a CCA letter to CL Finance who I have found out through phone calls and chasing etc that they do own the debt.

On the 16th of Jan they replied stating that they have received our request and that they have "requested the information".

Since then we have not heard anything. They send monthly statements and they have cashed the £1 cheque and applied it to the balance of the account.

We have kept the original payments running but stopped them as of the end of February, thus we did not pay March.

Now on the 2nd of April they have now sent us a Default Notice. We now have until the 16th of April to pay the balance before they will go to the next step.

But we have still not received the documents requested in the CCA and they are now well past the 12/14 days and one month period.

What should we do now? Please advise on the next steps.

[PriorityOne]

Originally Posted by SilkySmooth

Hey,

Been a while, thanks to everyone for the follow ups on this thread... just to recap....

On 10th of Jan we sent a CCA letter to CL Finance who I have found out through phone calls and chasing etc that they do own the debt.

Phone calls prove nothing. They need to produce the CCA doc. by law upon request of it, in order to prove ownership.

On the 16th of Jan they replied stating that they have received our request and that they have "requested the information".

If they owned it, then they should already have it. You would not need to request something if you owned it.

Since then we have not heard anything. They send monthly statements and they have cashed the £1 cheque and applied it to the balance of the account.

Sounds like they don't have it then.

We have kept the original payments running but stopped them as of the end of February, thus we did not pay March.

Good.

Now on the 2nd of April they have now sent us a Default Notice. We now have until the 16th of April to pay the balance before they will go to the next step.

Dear Sir/Madam,

On xx/xx/2007, I made a legal request for the Consumer Credit Agreement in relation to the above account (Consumer Credit Act, 1974)

To date, you have failed to comply with this request and therefore, no further payments will be made until such times as it can be produced and re-enforced in court.

Please be aware that it is an offence to continue to pursue payment on a disputed account. Non-compliance of a CCA request is a complete defence in any court action taken that you may take and as such, any action that you do take will be vigorously defended.

Yours faithfully,


But we have still not received the documents requested in the CCA and they are now well past the 12/14 days and one month period.

What should we do now? Please advise on the next steps.

As above...

[andrew1]

You also need to get them to address the Default as that will be registered at the Credit Reference Agencies. The account is in dispute, they are in default themselves, unless they can provide what you have asked for they have no right to register any default so tell them "remove default within 7 days and confirm in writing you have done it"

[stormo]

Hello andrew1 ,hope you dont mind some questions, can i ask how do you request monies paid to a DCA over a number of years, but after asking for your agreement under the CCA 1974 they have defaulted over the 12/14 days but not gone over the 30 days for the criminal offence to be committed??

Also as the DCA has been paid whats the rate of interest? 8% or is that at the court claim stage.

Also is there someone on this forum who has received monies paid back for a now proven unenforcable debt.ie no agreements,BTW my alleged debts do not have CCJ`s attached.

Any Advice would be welcome as to how to proceed in the actual phrasing of the request for the funds paid to be returned.

best regards S

ps a number of people on this board are in the same boat so to speak.

[PriorityOne]

Originally Posted by stormo

Hello andrew1 ,hope you dont mind some questions, can i ask how do you request monies paid to a DCA over a number of years, but after asking for your agreement under the CCA 1974 they have defaulted over the 12/14 days but not gone over the 30 days for the criminal offence to be committed??

The fact that a DCA has a Deed of Assignment has stopped me from doing this.... as it proves the existence of the debt. Even though no CCA means it cannot be enforced.... there is nothing to say how much should have been paid. Therefore, the amount being re-claimed as a refund cannot be proved in court.

[stormo]

Hello Priorityone.thanks for the reply,looks like the non production of the agreement is a double edged sword in that there is no existing proof of enforcable debt,one of my DCA s said that they have been assigned the debt from the original creditor but seems like this has also become lost,i`m thinking that they might have not had this assignment to begin with as surely this would confirm the right to pursue and collect on the debt.

Have they still got to legally produce the deed of assignment aswell as the original executed agrrement under the terms of CCA request,which indicates the DCA has bought debt and is not acting as an agent for the original creditor.

Im still upset that i cant get my money back that i`ve paid though

regards S

[PriorityOne]

Originally Posted by stormo

Hello Priorityone.thanks for the reply,looks like the non production of the agreement is a double edged sword in that there is no existing proof of enforcable debt,one of my DCA s said that they have been assigned the debt from the original creditor but seems like this has also become lost,i`m thinking that they might have not had this assignment to begin with as surely this would confirm the right to pursue and collect on the debt.

Hi Stormo,

Non-production of the Agreement means that the debt cannot be enforced .... but the Deed of Assignment proves that it exists . That's why going to court for a refund is a non-starter. We also have no way of knowing if a DCA still has that Deed of Assignment because they are not obliged to send it to us. As it contains details of the bulk pruchase of debts.... it also carries the names of other borrowers.... so it's a breach of The Data Protection Act to send a copy out upon request. In theory, you could take a DCA to court in the hope that they don't produce it in court.... but it's a gamble.

Have they still got to legally produce the deed of assignment aswell as the original executed agrrement under the terms of CCA request,which indicates the DCA has bought debt and is not acting as an agent for the original creditor.

No, they do not have to provide the Deed of Assignment for the reasons outlined above.... but they do need to produce a CCA in order to enforce payment.

Im still upset that i cant get my money back that i`ve paid though

So am I.. ... and am constantly trying to cook up new ways to get around this problem....

regards S

[SilkySmooth]

PriorityOne, andrew1,

Thank you both for your replies, I have typed up the following letter based on your comments and will be sending it off first thing in the morning registered.

"Dear Sir/Madam,

On the 10th January 2007, I made a legal request for the Consumer Credit Agreement in relation to the above account (Consumer Credit Act, 1974)

To date, you have failed to comply with this request and therefore, no further payments will be made until such times as it can be produced and re-enforced in court.

Please be aware that it is an offence to continue to pursue payment on a disputed account. Non-compliance of a CCA request is a complete defence in any court action taken that you may take and as such, any action that you do take will be vigorously defended.

Furthermore, you have placed a default upon the account whilst the account remains in dispute. I therefore require that you remove the default within 7 days and confirm in writing.

Yours Sincerely"

I will let you know when/if I hear anything back.