Road Tax/Sorn declaration

[marky-mark]

Hi there, this is my first post, so be gentle!!

MY issue...if anyone can help..

My brother has an old motorbike that he used to run a few years ago. after his circumstances changed he put the bike into storage & filled out a sorn declaration at the time.
he never received any reminders for renewing the sorn (apparently should be done every year) & subsiquently forgot to do it.

5 years later..

He now wants to get the bike back out & tax it again....however a phone call to the DVLA has suggested that if he wants to tax it now he will be liable to a £1000 & 5 years worth of road tax.

With places like ebay full of car & particularly off road bikes i'm sure there are hundreds of vehicles in this situation, i'm sure no one actually gives in & pays up.
Surely it is the responsiblity of the DVLA to send out renewal forms etc, as with road tax?

Any help is gratefully received....
Thanks

[Rob S]

DVLA should send out a reminder as SORN has to be declared every 12 months if the vehicle is going to be kept off the road. It might be worthwhile making a Data Protection Act request to DVLA to ask them what documentation they have relating to the vehicle, including copies of any reminders that they may or may not have sent out.

[haydn]

My son sorn his car for 5 months and kept it in my garage. Then got it MOTd but the post office closed before he could re tax it. That night he got a ticket for no tax. In court the dvla were able to get 5 months back tax. Its a real rip off. But revenge is at hand with the PCNs. Its WAR.

[bitbob]

Maybe your brother could transfer ownership to someone else and then transfer it back if he really will be hit with a big fine.

[marky-mark]

yeah thats what we were thinking, however, he's concerned that somebody else registering, taxing & mot'ing the back will flag up that its not been taxed or sorned for the last five years & result charges being issued even though he has 'sold it on'????

doesn't sold like anyone has been in this situation before...so it could be a very painful way of finding out! - it could be cheaper to scrap it, although the bike does have a certain centimental value...

[tim2718281]

Well, the DVLA *could* prosecute him for not declaring SORN.

They would have to prove he had not done so - quite how they do that I have no idea.

If the magistrates were to find him guilty, they would then decide whether to fine him, and if so how much. Have there been any court cases indicating the level of fines magistrates are deciding on?

Personally, if I were a magistrate, I'd be inclined simply to order the person to declare the SORNs retrospectively.

Tim

[tom3131]

Originally Posted by marky-mark

Hi there, this is my first post, so be gentle!!

MY issue...if anyone can help..

My brother has an old motorbike that he used to run a few years ago. after his circumstances changed he put the bike into storage & filled out a sorn declaration at the time.
he never received any reminders for renewing the sorn (apparently should be done every year) & subsiquently forgot to do it.

5 years later..

He now wants to get the bike back out & tax it again....however a phone call to the DVLA has suggested that if he wants to tax it now he will be liable to a £1000 & 5 years worth of road tax.

With places like ebay full of car & particularly off road bikes i'm sure there are hundreds of vehicles in this situation, i'm sure no one actually gives in & pays up.
Surely it is the responsiblity of the DVLA to send out renewal forms etc, as with road tax?

Any help is gratefully received....
Thanks

Maybe a gentle nudge and a chat with a DVLA Supervisor might just do the trick this time? . If not, then to be honest I cant see you getting out of it, because after all its not the DVLA's duty to keep sending out reminders although I suppose its a good idea. Keep us updated.

Regards.
Tom3131

[Rich44]

It is the DVLAs responsibility to send out reminders for SORN declarations the same way they do with Road Fund Licence the reminder itself is the paperwork you send back, the real question is whether not receiving the reminder constitutes an excuse for not filing a SORN each year which I suspect they will say it is.

The only thing you could do is if you never received any paperwork from them say you assumed that they had received the SORN and there was no problem

[v_j_r]

@Rich44 quoted:The only thing you could do is if you never received any paperwork from them say you assumed that they had received the SORN and there was no problem".



Your already dead in the water with that one, they will have complete records (Amazingly) of all documentation sent and to what address's?.

Plus the fact that "SORN" can be electronically filed/notified online and has been for a while now.

[Rich44]

Yeah cos the DVLA are infallible.

We had a problem not long ago where I got pulled over by the police 4 weeks after buying a new car as the DVLA had it registered as no keeper despite the fact that they had the V5 returned from the dealer we bought it from (we posted it) and we had chased it up and sent them the V5c to sort it out and they still screwed it up, still its proving that unfortunately as like councils they are deemed to be correct at all times and screw joe public at least thats now starting to change with the current PCN fiasco

[dave]

The DVLA are scum.

I 'sorn'ed 2 cars, and thought no more of it. Until one day I received 2 £25 'fines' in the post for not declaring them off the road.

I naturally assumed it was yet another DVLA cock up (this was by no means the first - letters going missing, incorrect names, addresses etc... over the years).

I phoned them, as was told 'not to worry about it' - particularly as one of the cars had subsiquently been scrapped.

I then received 2 court summons' in the post for not replying to the 2 £25 letters. I couldn't attend court on the day the hearing was set for as I was due to start a new job on that day.

I pleaded guilty by post, and wrote a letter explaining the circumstances and that the letters I didn't reply to should not have been sent in the first place.

The court 'lost' the letter (but still had my plea, despite them being in the same envelope??) and fined me £520 a peice!

I wrote to the DVLA. I was ignored.

I then wrote to my MP, who wrote to the DVLA and then got a letter saying that they would 'waive' the fines. Seems odd that my letter should go missing, but his not.

Anyway, I received a 4 page letter of apology from the DVLA (by apology, read: 4 page letter accusing me of lying and being a general scumbag who drives old motors).

I declined it. I was not guilty, therefore the fines should not be 'waived' but I should be exonerated.

Never heard a thing back. Until about 5 months later when the court chased me for the fines!

I wrote a stinking letter, and got a cheque for £10 by way of apology - no mention of exoneration!

Write to your MP; some of them actually do attempt to earn their living.

[Rob S]

I agree with your view on DVLA. I was knocked off my motorcycle 2 years ago by the driver of a white van. Fortunately I was not hurt, a touch of bruising but nothing broken. The driver gave me his details, but they turned out to be false. I contacted DVLA and they eventually informed me that the details of the registered keeper that they had were in dispute ( believed false) and that they had carried out a "full investigation" and had been unable to find the current keeper. In light of that, they declined to provide me with the details they had as they would be breaching the Data Protection Act by knowingly giving me details they knew to be false.

I wasn't content with that so I asked them to give me details of their full investigation. They stalled for a couple of months before admitting that they had done nothing!

What had happened with the van was this:-

1. New owner buys the van and sends off V5 with new keeper details on it.
2. DVLA send out new V5 to address given to them.
3. DVLA receive the V5 back with a letter stating that the persons living at address supplied by new keeper had nothing to do with the van.
4. DVLA accepted this on face value, didn't ask for verification from person claiming they had nothing to do with the van.

I believe the owner just sent the log book back and told DVLA that it was nothing to do with him. On the stength of that, they do bugger all, apart from logging their records with a query regarding who owns it. They don't send anyone to the address, don't inform the police and don't ask for documentation to verify the claims.

So, in essence, despite their failure to comply with the Data Protection Act in checking that the info they were given was correct, they still refused to help me, apart from telling me that the van had been taxed twice at post offices in Hertfordshire.

I then discovered the van had changed hands again. I asked DVLA to provide me with details of the new keeper but they refused. I asked them if they would contact the new keeper and ask them if they could supply information about who they got the van from. They refused again, citing "excessive processing of data".

They are a shambles and a disgrace. All they are interested in is milking law abiding citizens for as much cash as they can. When it comes to chasing those abusing the vehicle and driving licence systems they do nothing, claiming they don't have the resources. They need a good kick up the rear end!

Sorry about going on a bit there, but I do feel better for getting it off my chest

[tim2718281]

I've not worked on the DVLA systems.

However, many organisations these days use document-handling services.

With these, any documents you send are processed by a company which specializes in handling documents; it performs any basic checks, then scans the documents and transmits them electronically.

There are many reasons for errors; the documents can be lost in the post and never reach the document handling company, they can be mishandled and never get scanned, they can be scanned incorrectly so that the electronic transmission contains incorrect data (eg wrong vehicle registration number, wrong name, wrong address,), the transmission can fail so the data is never received, and software bugs can mean the received data is not processed correctly.

All these things can and do occur, many times a day for some services.

It's worth knowing two things:

1) The document handling service will have a "service level agreement" specifying what level of errors is acceptable to its customer. I have never heard of a service committing to and achieving zero errors. However, unless the service level agreement commits to and achieves error-free processing, I don't see how a prosecution could argue in court that the contents of the computer system are reliable evidence. (I'd be interested in a lawyer's opinion of whether evidence from the DVLA's computer system is even admissible!)

2) All big computer systems run according to ISO9000 or similar have an associated problem management system, which keeps track of all reported errors. People not used to large-scale computer systemns will probably be horrified to discover just how many errors occur, and just how many different errors do occur. I should think by the time the defence has gone through in detail say ten acknowledged defects in the computer system, courts will be very reluctant to convict someone purely on the basis of the content of the computer system.

Tim

[JonCris]

Originally Posted by Rich44

It is the DVLAs responsibility to send out reminders for SORN declarations the same way they do with Road Fund Licence the reminder itself is the paperwork you send back, the real question is whether not receiving the reminder constitutes an excuse for not filing a SORN each year which I suspect they will say it is.

The only thing you could do is if you never received any paperwork from them say you assumed that they had received the SORN and there was no problem

1 year fine but, what was it, 5! I don't think so

[JonCris]

Originally Posted by Rob S

I agree with your view on DVLA. I was knocked off my motorcycle 2 years ago by the driver of a white van. Fortunately I was not hurt, a touch of bruising but nothing broken. The driver gave me his details, but they turned out to be false. I contacted DVLA and they eventually informed me that the details of the registered keeper that they had were in dispute ( believed false) and that they had carried out a "full investigation" and had been unable to find the current keeper. In light of that, they declined to provide me with the details they had as they would be breaching the Data Protection Act by knowingly giving me details they knew to be false.

I wasn't content with that so I asked them to give me details of their full investigation. They stalled for a couple of months before admitting that they had done nothing!

What had happened with the van was this:-

1. New owner buys the van and sends off V5 with new keeper details on it.
2. DVLA send out new V5 to address given to them.
3. DVLA receive the V5 back with a letter stating that the persons living at address supplied by new keeper had nothing to do with the van.
4. DVLA accepted this on face value, didn't ask for verification from person claiming they had nothing to do with the van.

I believe the owner just sent the log book back and told DVLA that it was nothing to do with him. On the stength of that, they do bugger all, apart from logging their records with a query regarding who owns it. They don't send anyone to the address, don't inform the police and don't ask for documentation to verify the claims.

So, in essence, despite their failure to comply with the Data Protection Act in checking that the info they were given was correct, they still refused to help me, apart from telling me that the van had been taxed twice at post offices in Hertfordshire.

I then discovered the van had changed hands again. I asked DVLA to provide me with details of the new keeper but they refused. I asked them if they would contact the new keeper and ask them if they could supply information about who they got the van from. They refused again, citing "excessive processing of data".

They are a shambles and a disgrace. All they are interested in is milking law abiding citizens for as much cash as they can. When it comes to chasing those abusing the vehicle and driving licence systems they do nothing, claiming they don't have the resources. They need a good kick up the rear end!

Sorry about going on a bit there, but I do feel better for getting it off my chest

If you have a lawful or reasonable reason (such as being in an accident)for requireing that information then the DVLC have to provide it & can't as so often happens hide behind the Data Protection Act.

After all as we have recently seen they give it to every other bugger.

Go & ask a solicitor to write requesting the info. They can then try those excuses on him

[patdavies]

Originally Posted by Rich44

It is the DVLAs responsibility to send out reminders for SORN declarations the same way they do with Road Fund Licence the reminder itself is the paperwork you send back,

If the DVLA do not send you a VED reminder, then this does not absolve you from the duty to have the vehicle taxed if it is on the road.

The DVLA reminders are, in law, a courtesy and not a duty. They are not required by law and the lack of one is not an excuse for failing to comply with the law yourself.