Ticket Touts

[Soad]

I would just like to mention how difficult it is trying to obtain tickets for the Foo Fighters London concerts in November which went on sale yesterday

This applies to most concerts not Just the Foo Fighters

After seeing them live at Earls Courts a couple of years ago I have become a massive fan and was really looking forward to getting 2 London tickets today.

I am registered with Ticket Master so I was all logged in with my details ready and at 9.00 I was trying to order when they went on sale and they was sold out in minutes then guess what within minutes they are being sold on eBay for a vast profit

What this means that many of the real fans are being ripped of by unscrupulous people and having to pay excess prices in order to see there favorite bands

Something must be done to stop this money making tactic, tickets for sporting events and the like are not allowed to be sold on eBay so why should concert tickets

Or if they are allowed to be sold then it should be for the face value only plus a very small handling charge and this would not be a problem for real fans if they have a genuine reason for sale

Come on let’s all pull together and stop these people because when tickets can only be sold for the cover price then that will deter them from this

This is a government petition that people can sign and the more the better

Petition to: Restrict the resale of tickets to face value only, plus reasonable fees set by law.

I am even thing of starting a website and promoting trying to stop this

What are the bands and the bands managements views on this would they like to see this stamped out and back the real fans

I would very much appreciated any comments you may having regarding this

Lets stop these scumbags

[Weird Al Yankovic]

It's only illegal for football tickets to be sold on-not for all sporting events. And no law prevents concert tickets being sold on either.

However, the promoter may state a clause to the original buyer that should they sell the ticket on then the new buyer will not be allowed in.

It's frustrating when you can't buy a ticket for a show or a game but is it unfair? If it becomes law that nobody can profit from selling on tickets then where will it end?

Will I not be allowed to sell my house for a profit because it is now worth more than when the person who sold it to me?

This is a capitalist society and, sometimes, things are unfair. It's just supply and demand.

[Jim0203]

Originally Posted by Weird Al Yankovic

This is a capitalist society and, sometimes, things are unfair. It's just supply and demand.

I think that's a bit of a simplistic view to take. Not all markets are the same, so the "law" of supply and demand needs to be looked at in different ways dependent on the market, not as some incontrevertible truth.

As demand goes up, prices go up, but because of this more people start making a product, so supply goes up and prices go down, until (supposedly) we reach some kind of equilibrium. But this doesn't always work.

For example, with popular sporting events and concerts the demand is very high and there is absolutely no way that the producer can increase the supply - there are only so many tickets available for any one event.

The "market" is then skewed further by the fact that there are some people who are willing to pay huge amounts of money for tickets, because of the emotional attachment they feel towards the event. This enables touts to buy up a bunch of tickets and then sell them on at a huge profit.

The touts are not adding anything to the use value of the tickets, but because of the market conditions they are able to add a huge amount to the exchange value. I don't think this is anywhere near as bad as when governments or businesses do the same with currencies or more traditional commodities, but it's still unjust and needs to be rectified.

I'm not sure how one would go about this, however. Touting has always been controlled around football stadiums but it still goes on. But it would be possible for eBay to ban all sales of tickets where the mark-up is disproportionate. In my view the only profit that should be allowed on any ticket sold on eBay would be to cover the costs incurred in selling the ticket, and the time spent doing so.

Of course, this doesn't touch on the issue of the larger-scale profiteering that is carried out by the organisations who run these cultural events, but that's another issue entirely.

[Weird Al Yankovic]

I can't see how or why, in our type of market economy, one aspect of it should have conditions put upon it just because there is an emotional attachment to it.

It is unjust that petrol at a BP motorway service station is far more expensive than a BP petrol station in a city. This is only done because a driver, running low, has to fill up at the more expensive motorway station.

Hardly fair and it is done as BP know they can do it. There is no extra value added to this either, just like your tout example, petrol is petrol.

Ticket touts are a rip off, just as motorway petrol is, fags from a pub machine, getting cash from some cash machines, having milk delivered rather than buying it from a supermarket, buying a travel agents holiday insurance rather than buy your own online etc etc.

There are thousands and thousands of rip offs and touts are just one.

Ban all or not ban any.

[Jim0203]

Originally Posted by Weird Al Yankovic

Ban all or not ban any.

Certainly, everything you've listed there is unjust, and they should all be tackled. But just because there's so many of them, do you really think getting one of them sorted out is such a bad idea?

In practice this is how things are hapenning at the moment, even with our supposedly free-market economy. Governments are consistently subsidising certain markets so that goods remain at a fair price.

As I said in my first post, it's certainly less important for the ticket touting problem to be sorted out than, say, for the food markets to be ran on a basis where people can get access to goods. And, personally, since I've never bought anything from a tout, I've not got the motivation to do very much about this myself. However, it would be very simple for eBay to prevent profiteering on ticket sales. I guess the next step would be to get tighter control on the companies such as ticketmaster and their legitimated profiteering.

[Weird Al Yankovic]

I agree with your posts but I just don't think that touting is a priority. After all, tickets are for entertainment and are not obligatory.

I would want to see Prince at the O2 Arena in the very front row but I will need to pay £££'s for that. Therefore I'm not going to.

However, when I ran a courier business I had no choice but to pay motorway service prices for petrol as there was only one choice. Over the financial year I paid hundreds more than if I was able to have a choice.

And it's more widespread and petrol is essential for business and the public.

Incidentally, logic says that to fill up the pumps at a motorway service station is easier for the lorries than to navigate through a busy city to one in the centre.

Therefore, it's just an easy way to rip off people with no justification at all. This must make them millions. It's the biggest rip off of all.

[Jim0203]

Glad we agree. I guess it's "each to their own" in terms of which rip-off to fight. I can't drive so petrol prices don't effect me on a daily basis, but I can see your point if you were running a business that relied on fuel.

Similarly, I think it's dangerous to under-estimate the power the ticketing companies and the touts have over their customers. The touts can only charge the prices they do because they know how much people will pay. Some people are so keen to see certain events that it's very close to being a necessity to them - I mean, if you were on an average income would you pay thousands of pounds to watch a bunch of blokes kick a ball around, unless you pretty much had to see them do it?

Empirically it seems that people do need to go and see these concerts etc. I'm not personally one of them but I do think their cause is pretty worthwhile.

[rogerebaker]

I like you have tried on various occasions to get tickets to events at the O2 arena.

I have been on the phone at 9am logged on etc etc but have never been succesful

So how do you get the tickets or are they all as I suspect sold on to agencies and touts before I even get a chance who then make huge profits.

I personally think the whole thing is a con and a means by which the venues and the agencies get to line their pockets

[patdavies]

Originally Posted by Weird Al Yankovic

Incidentally, logic says that to fill up the pumps at a motorway service station is easier for the lorries than to navigate through a busy city to one in the centre.

Therefore, it's just an easy way to rip off people with no justification at all. This must make them millions. It's the biggest rip off of all.

There is some increased cost in the supply of motorway fuel.

1) It is delivered by motorway so the tanker can't just turn round and go back; it has to continue to the next junction before it can turn. This has a cost in terms of fuel and time

2) Staff have to travel similarly and are usually therefore paid at premium rates; some companies provide free transport as well.

3) there is a legal duty to be open 24/7 with all the associated staff and power costs.

4) M'way services tend to be busier, there is a legal limit on how many pumps one person can supervise; this is why you tend to find banks of pumps shut down at night.

5) Your local garage does not have the overheads that a M'way services has in terms of buildings, car parks, security, staff, energy costs, etc.

[Weird Al Yankovic]

I disagree. I am talking of petrol stations on a Motorway which are often seperate from a motorway services ie Esso are not Mido but can be on the same plot.

Motorway service pumps are often barricaded off so only two or three are usable, say, from 1am to 6am when traffic is less.

Only one member of staff will be present as the actual garage will be closed and you have to pay via the window.

There are no parking spaces. You fill up and go.

Energy costs are insignificant.

Motorway pump stations can close during the night.

Driving to one junction cannot be more of a delivery concern than having to be on a motorway in the first place, leave it and then navigate to the city centre. Anybody with delivery knowledge will tell you that it is far easier to motorway drive, and less time, than navigating a city centre.

It is up to staff if they want to travel many miles to their place of work. An employer is under no obligation to pay their travel costs and I very much doubt BP, Esso etc do.

The motorway driver is captive which is why these garages charge so much more for a litre.

Just 2p or 3p added on makes a heck of a difference if you are buying, say, 300 or 400 litres a week. Times that for every rep, delivery driver etc in the UK and these company's are making millions and millions for no good reason other than to rip people off.

[patdavies]

The majority of petrol stations are not owned by the brand. They are run by the service area concession holder.

My son works at one, as does my daughter part time. He works on the BP petrol forecourt, she works in Burger King - the whole thing is run by, and all staff employed by Moto - even the WH Smith and M&S shops.

They do get free transport home - paid for by Moto because they have to work antisocial hours in the middle of nowhere.

If you pull into a motorway services in the middle of the night to go for a pee and buy nothing , how do you think those facilities are maintained and cleaned 24 hours per day; 7 days per week? It is run as a site; its overheads are as a site.

They are required to be open 24/7 as a condition of licence; although not all pumps have to be operating. How many people actually buy large amounts of petrol at the 'premium' price - enough to pay for the costs of the employee and on-cost? At least one person on the forecourt, at all times, must have undertaken not inconsiderable training as regards safe operation of the pumps.

Energy costs are not insignificant. Forecourt and shop lighting, signage, all consume power whether or not somebody is buying fuel.

Driving on the motorway is significant. The motorway service is the sole drop. Where my son works they use a tankerful every 2 days; daily for diesel. It not just a few thousand litres and then on somewhere else.

The motorway drive is not captive at all - I travel 25,000 miles per year and rarely, if ever, buy fuel on the motorway.

I don't deny that motorway services make a profit - that is what they are in business to do. However, they do have much higher overheads so the profit is not as obscene as you obviously believe.

[Weird Al Yankovic]

Well, my nephew is employed by BP at a BP pump station at Magor services and that services is run by Moto. I know this as he has told me and he has worked at other BP sites in south Wales including city centres.

Moto do not employ staff at BP city centre sites and it appears they do not at Magor either.

Again, to use energy at a motorway garage is the same as using energy at a similar sized garage in the city so it is insignificant.

Staff do not get any help with travel costs. They have to make their own way to, and from, the garage. My nephew lives just 3 miles away from Magor.
Most services in the UK are hardly remote in any case. Just look on a map and you will see villages/towns/cities not far from most. It is from these that, logically, staff are recruited. If an employee feels they want to travel 50+ miles to their place of work then that is a matter for them, although there may be cases where travel remuneration is taken into account for a remote garage.

Being open 24/7 is probably for the service area. I have come across many garages which are not 24/7. An AA map shows these. I am talking about motorway garages not motorway services-they are seperate.

I had to buy thousands of litres of gas (LPG) on the motorway as I was captive as a motorway user, unless I knew of a city centre LPG provider at or near my delivery destination. This mark up was/is 25% and I drove 100k a year. (Or 3 times around the world)

A motorway destination for a delivery is much easier and even more so if it is a sole drop.
What is more difficult for a sole delivery, a tanker coming from Merseyside to London EC1 or a tanker coming from Merseyside to the nearest service station on a motorway nearest to London EC1?

If you cannot see the obvious here then I have to guess you are on a wind up.

[patdavies]

I am certainly not on a wind up. You appear to be unable to accept that there are extra costs in running a motorway service area; above and beyond the simple supply of petrol.

Magor is not a motorway service area - it is off motorway at an otherwise standard m'way junction. It is not necessary to use the motorway to approach/leave the services. The services where my kids work is Moto only, nobody is employed by BP; it also can only be accessed via the motorway.

However, all staff have the option of free transport from town to the services - it is a cost of recruitment and retention. It is not a question of distance; it is a question of relative remoteness and accessibility - as well as unsocial hours. My daughter earns about £ 2/hr more at the services compared with the Burger King in town.

The current price difference for unleaded between these services and the local supermarket is 2p/litre - hardly a rip-off.

As for your delivery example. I cannot see that a tanker would travel from Merseyside to EC1 - there are nearer refineries/depots. The services in Berkshire have tankers coming from Hamble or Fawley - about 50 miles each way. Secondly, my point was that at a city centre garage, the tanker turns round and goes back the way it came (for a sole delivery). For a motorway services, it has ot go to the next junction where it can turn round, which can add tens of miles to the journey.

I repeat, this is not a wind-up; the above are all facts.

[Weird Al Yankovic]

In that case you are talking rubbish.

Magor is operated by First Motorway Services and is one of many in the UK run by this firm. There is also a Travelodge and an Esso garage.

Travelodge employ Travelodge staff.
Esso employ Esso staff.
And First Motorway employ First Motorway.
They are not all employed by just the services operator like you say.

A friend of mine used to do a London run from Elsmere Port to London to deliver to a Morrisons in Enfield-fact. Simple logic would show that it would be easier to deliver to the last remaining service area of the M25 rather than leave and navigate to Morrisons off the M25 to Enfield. What if it is at 5pm?

Why can't you grasp this?

There are plenty of people who work in remote areas working shift work. Unless there is some kind of agreement then it is up to the worker to get into and out of work.

Ever seen jobs advertised that require your own transport?

If you can't grasp the significance of what 'just 2p' makes when you times by amount of litres and times by amount of people then you are thick.

[patdavies]

Originally Posted by Weird Al Yankovic

In that case you are talking rubbish.

You are the one talking rubbish. Magor is not and never will be an on-motorway service area - as I explained above. It is simply an area set aside by planners for the various companies to build and operate facilities that the companies concerned believe will be profitable adjacent to a motorway.

The service areas that I am talking about are on-motorway; accessible directly from the motorway. They are leased as an entire site by the DoT to the services operator (in the case I am talking about - MOTO). Part of the lease/licence requirements is that for free toilets and 24 hours fuel and food - somehow that has to be paid for.

The reason that pumps are blocked off overnight is that - as a condition of licence from the Local Authority to store and sell petrol - one person (ie the one poor guy on night shift) may only operate 6 pumps. That is effectively the three pumps on one island of the forecourt because the pumps are double sided

Magor is operated by First Motorway Services and is one of many in the UK run by this firm. There is also a Travelodge and an Esso garage.

Travelodge employ Travelodge staff.
Esso employ Esso staff.
And First Motorway employ First Motorway.

Standard practice for a defined area as opposed to a motorway service area.

Let me make this simpler. Travelling outwards from London on the M4.

Heston is a motorway service area
Reading is a motorway service area
Chieveley is not
Membury is a motorway service area
Leigh Delamere is a motorway service area
Magor is not

They are not all employed by just the services operator like you say.

They are if they are on-motorway services. At the on-motorway service area I'm referring to, all staff are employed by MOTO. Even though uniformed/badged as BP, M&S, WH Smith, Costa Coffee, etc.

A friend of mine used to do a London run from Elsmere Port to London to deliver to a Morrisons in Enfield-fact. Simple logic would show that it would be easier to deliver to the last remaining service area of the M25 rather than leave and navigate to Morrisons off the M25 to Enfield. What if it is at 5pm?

OK if you say so, but it is very inefficient use of transport as the distances involved mean that it needs more than one driver to operate due to drivers' hours restrictions. I know for a fact that the 'BP' fuel for the Berkshire M4 services comes from Hamble and Fawley.

BTW, there isn't a last remaining area of the M25 - there is no last of anything; the M25 is circular.

Why can't you grasp this?

Oh, I can grasp this for an off-motorway facility - it is a pity that you continue to fail to understand the differences between the two types of services. Not everything operates on the same principles as Magor just because Magor does.

There are plenty of people who work in remote areas working shift work. Unless there is some kind of agreement then it is up to the worker to get into and out of work.

I don't (and have never) denied that. I simply state the fact that Moto provide free transport in order to aid recruitment and retention for the service areas in Berkshire.

To try and make it simple for you - yes, there is such an agreement for the reason I stated above and this is an overhead that MOTO has to bear. To do otherwise would mean that they would be unable to recruit/retain sufficient staff to man the service area.

Ever seen jobs advertised that require your own transport?

And the relevance of that statement is?

If you can't grasp the significance of what 'just 2p' makes when you times by amount of litres and times by amount of people then you are thick.

I did not use the phrase "just 2p", so I fail to see how you can try to quote me on this - and in bold too. If you are gong to quote me, please do so accurately. I also wonder why you feel the need to resort to personal abuse.

I made a simple statement of fact that the difference between supermarket and motorway services is 2p. There are, in fact, franchised garages loc