Advice - Used Car

[asd120273]

Could anyone please give me some advice.

My other half purchased a Second Hand Mini Cooper for £8995 in the middle of June for a local car dealer.

This afternoon we had some mechanical problems with the Gearbox, now the garage give a 30 day warrenty on the car when it was bought, but as we are outside that now, I was wondering if the sale of goods act covers us? From what I can gather, goods have to be fit for purpose for a reasonable amount of time after purchase. Would you class 2 months as a resonable amount of time? And should we expect the garage to pay for the repairs?

Thanks

Anthony

[tom3131]

If its a sale made in the course of a business then yess.....your ok. But act quick...and you've accepted the goods so are only entitled to repairs etc...

[asd120273]

Thanks Tom,

You are a star!

[tom3131]

Originally Posted by asd120273

Thanks Tom,

You are a star!

Glad I could be of assistence .

[Bookworm]

From the Trading Standards Website:

Used Cars - consumer rights


The Law
When you buy goods from a trader, you enter into a legally binding contract governed by the Sale of Goods Act 1979, as amended by the Sale and Supply of Goods Act 1994 and the Sale and Supply of Goods to Consumers Regulations 2002. The law gives buyer and seller rights and responsibilities and applies to the sale of used cars in the same way as to other goods. When you buy from a trader, you have the right to expect the car to be:

• of satisfactory quality;
• fit for its purpose, including any particular purpose made known, and
• as described.

The law defines goods as being of ‘satisfactory quality’ if they meet the standard that a reasonable person would regard as satisfactory – taking the description of the goods into account, the price (if relevant) and all other relevant circumstances. So, when you have bought a used car, you must consider its age, the price you paid, the description which was applied to it and anything else which is relevant when deciding whether it is of satisfactory quality. Your expectations should be different when you are buying a low mileage, two-year-old car than when you are buying a high mileage, ten-year-old one, for example. However, it must still be:

• fit to be used on the road;
• in a condition which reflects its age and price, and
• reasonably reliable.

When you buy as a consumer from a motor trader, your legal rights under the Sale of Goods Act 1979 cannot be taken away or reduced. An example of an attempt to do so is a notice such as ‘sold as seen’. Such phrases are meaningless and cannot alter your rights. If you see a sign of this type, report it to Consumer Direct on 08454 040506. A warranty or guarantee can only be given in addition to your legal rights, not instead of them. You can take legal action under the Sale of Goods Act 1979 for up to six years after the date of the contract, but it is unrealistic to consider legal action for defects on used cars – especially older vehicles – once you have had them in use for a reasonable length of time. Each case is different, so it is best to take advice before you decide what to do.

You don't say how old the car is. That really is the benchmark you need to consider. If it is an original Mini Cooper, I wouldn't give much hope of your chances. If, as I suspect, it is one of the more recent ones, the age of the car is very much what you need to have in mind, but seeing the price tag, I assume it is quite a recent car.

The other problem is that gearboxes are tricky beasts. Nevertheless, because of the way SOGA is set up, I think you have a very good case, especially as the fault happened in less than 6 months, which means it will be up to the dealer to prove the car was not faulty rather than the opposite.

[JonCris]

Since March 31st 2003 if purchased within the last 6 months the buyer does NOT have to prove the fault has only just occured.

It is assumed that the fault existed at the time of purchase (whatever the age new or old) & its for the seller to prove it didn't. The purchaser is therefore entitled to a full refund. a same cost alternative, or repair if the fault is relativley minor

30 day warranties are nothing more than a ploy & meaningless. You have more rights under the "Sale of Goods Act" Also if they do not state "this warranty does not affect your statutory rights" then it is illegal to even display them.

"accepting" the car on delivery does NOT affect these rights in any way

[rogerebaker]

I bought a mini cooper from a BMW dealer and 2months out of its warranty the gear box went.

I managed to get BMWs to pay for the gear box as a gesture of goodwill Sounds familier !!! which was about £1400. I still had to pay for the labour of about £600.

This is def. a manafacturing fault with the older BMW mini coopers.

Im still contemplating some sort of legal action against the dealer who sold it to me but I figure after 14 months Its going to be struggling.

Keep me updated

are there any other Mini cooper owners out there who suffered the same problem

[JonCris]

Originally Posted by rogerebaker

I bought a mini cooper from a BMW dealer and 2months out of its warranty the gear box went.

I managed to get BMWs to pay for the gear box as a gesture of goodwill Sounds familier !!! which was about £1400. I still had to pay for the labour of about £600.

This is def. a manafacturing fault with the older BMW mini coopers.

Im still contemplating some sort of legal action against the dealer who sold it to me but I figure after 14 months Its going to be struggling.

Keep me updated

are there any other Mini cooper owners out there who suffered the same problem

Whilst you don't say how long the warranty lasted or if the car was new or used I'm assuming new & one year. Unless you were rallying or taking part in some kind of speed trials you have a very good case against the dealer under the Sale of Goods act.

It is unreasonable for a major component to fail after only 1 year or even longer & the supplier not to fix it FOC

[robby71]

Originally Posted by rogerebaker

I
are there any other Mini cooper owners out there who suffered the same problem

Hi
just seen you post and after visiting numerous mini forums i found the old midlands gearbox which was fitted to BMW minis from 2001 - 2004 are very common for problems.
The problem seems to be well known but Mini UK won't admit liability and replce boxes out of warranty.
Have a search on - MINI2 - Fuel For Your MINI Obsession - MINI Cooper - S - One - Diesel - Works - Cabrio to see the numerous posts.

[rogerebaker]

Originally Posted by JonCris

Whilst you don't say how long the warranty lasted or if the car was new or used I'm assuming new & one year. Unless you were rallying or taking part in some kind of speed trials you have a very good case against the dealer under the Sale of Goods act.

It is unreasonable for a major component to fail after only 1 year or even longer & the supplier not to fix it FOC

The mini I bought was 3 years old but low mileage.

I was relieved at the time that BMW provided the parts free. I also contacted the original garage which sold me the car who were not interested in discussing compensation. I havnt done anything about it to date but the more I read makes me think I should at least write a couple of letters.

[JonCris]

Originally Posted by tom3131

If its a sale made in the course of a business then yess.....your ok. But act quick...and you've accepted the goods so are only entitled to repairs etc...

If the goods where purchased withing the last 6 months (new or second hand & in the case of car age is not very relevant when you talking about such a major component) then you can demand either a replacement of equal value or a suitable repair & you don't have to prove the fault appeared AFTER purchase. In law it is assumed that the fault existed prior to sale

& this is why

"reversed burden of proof"

Means that for the first six months the consumer need not produce any evidence that a product was inherently faulty at the time of sale. If a consumer is seeking any other remedy the burden of proof remains with him/her.
In such a case, the retailer will either accept there was an inherent fault, and will offer a remedy, or he will dispute that it was inherently flawed. If the latter, when he inspects the product to analyse the cause, he may, for example, point out impact damage or stains that would be consistent with it having been mistreated in such a way as to bring about the fault.
This reversal of the usual burden of proof only applies when the consumer is seeking a repair or replacement. After the first six months the onus of proof is again on the consumer.

If you have already advised the dealer of the fault you must act now!

Incidentally the 30 day warranty you referred to is a load of bull & con by the dealer. The dealer can't limit his liability to 30 days & if the dealer suggests or advertises otherwise he is committing a criminal offence under the trades description act............unless (& I have mentioned this before) he adds "This warranty does not affect you statutory rights" in writing that can be read & is in plain sight

Also being of low mileage I suggest you contact the previous owner as you may find the low mileage is the result of the car being in for repair all the time & if so it would certainly help any claim you might be forced to bring

[rosiecotton]

Pretty much what everyone else has said, really. The Sale of Goods Act does still apply to second hand goods, including cars. It doesn't cover normal wear and tear - if you bought, say, a car for a couple of hundred pounds that had done lots of miles, you'd not really expect a perfect motor. But in the cases above, there's no way I'd expect a gearbox to go wrong on a low mileage car or within the first few years, so you would still have rights to redress (likely to be a repair, in the first instance).

Of course, something else to consider is how you paid for the car as this may alter or give you additional rights.

[ukaviator]

Hi Rosie

Try the Mini dealers in your area. This is a common fault and there was a recall. You need your details, chassis number etc to give to them to check if it got through the recall.

BBC NEWS | England | Gearbox on Minis 'may be faulty'

http://www.vosa.gov.uk/vosa/apps/rec...hes/search.asp

Hope this helps

Uk. . .

[rogerebaker]

Sorry to hijack your thread a little anthony but the answers may also help you.

The car I brought was 3.5 years old. had 12 month warranty provided by MINI. milage was 20,000 ish cost just under 10 grand. I obtained a loan to purchase the car from an In house scheme where I work. There was no amibuity on what the loan was for and they paid the dealer direct for the vehicle. This was purchaced from a dealer some distance from my HA

after 14 months ( 2 months outside the warranty) the gearbox and drive shaft started making noises and my local dealer stated they needed replacing and not to drive it ). The local dealer contacted the origninal seller but not surprisingly they were not interested.

I made a few phonecalls to BMW UK who to be honest were very good and within a day offered to supply the new gearbox and drive shafts free of charge. These were fitted promptly and I had to pay for the fitting charge of about 800.00.

I spoke to the original BMW dealer who sold me the car who after spending a few weeks considering my complaint declined to recompense me for the fitting. This was in the summer.

I did at the time consider the sale of goods Act but was put of by the 6 months bit. As I had the car for 14 months would I therefor have to prove that the gearbox was faulty when purchased which as you can imagine would be very difficult. At the time the fault developed I had done about 12000 miles in it and it had been dealer serviced just before.

I am still prepared to take the matter further but am not 100% confident on how I stand.

If this puts anyone off buying a mini dont let it. Best car Ive ever had and Ive had a few just make sure you get a warranty or extend it when you can and make sure its BMW serviced. This was a big factor in BMW providing the bits free.

Other than these problems the car has been fine and the new gearbox is much better.

Any advice welcome.

[rosiecotton]

Roger, BMW did a good job there I have to say. The same couldn't be said of the dealer.

You could have argued with your dealer that the fault wasn't normal wear and tear and therefore covered by the Sale of Goods Act, and you could have been entitled to claim some redress from them, but you wouldn't have been legally entitled to a free repair and it would have been on you to prove that the fault was not normal wear and tear (I'm not a mechanic so you would have to get an expert opinion on whether a fault of that type would be considered normal for a car of the age and mileage, but I would suspect not).

I don't know how much the parts would have cost, but it's possible that after 14 months of driving the car, you may not have received a better offer from the trader anyway. That doesn't mean to say that it couldn't have been challenged: personally, if it had happened to me, I would have pushed for free parts and labour at cost. In my personal opinion (and I'm not a judge, it is just an opinion), that would have seemed fair to me bearing in mind the value, age and mileage of the car. I wouldn't have expected a £10k, 4 year old car with about 35k on the clock to have experienced a problem as severe as this.

It's going to be quite difficult to get any further compensation from the dealer now, though, as you have taken action elsewhere to remedy the problem. It really does depend on what you told the dealer at the time: whether you gave them a reasonable opportunity to put the problem right, and whether you informed them that if they did not you would be going elsewhere and pursuing them for damages.

Incidentally, there's some misconception about the "six month rule" of the Sale of Goods Act. It doesn't mean that a consumer is entitled to return faulty goods for a full refund at any time within the first six months. It simply means that there is a reverse burden of proof, i.e. in the event of a fault appearing within the first six months, the onus is on the trader to prove that the item is not faulty rather than on the consumer to prove that it is. Hypothetically, if the case were to go to court, a judge would assume that the goods WERE faulty at purchase unless the trader could provide evidence to prove otherwise.

The right to a full refund remains the same - a consumer gets a "reasonable time" (not specified in law, but in practice just enough time to check the goods for faults after purchase, often a few weeks) in which they can reject faulty goods for a full refund. After this time has passed, a consumer is deemed to have legally accepted the goods. At this stage, a trader can offer a satisfactory repair or a like-for-like replacement