The other side of the fence -

Ingrid · 28th November 2007, 13:30

Please accept my apologies for posting if this is inappropriate but I'm not sure what to do - some of us do have a conscience you see.

I help run a very small bodyshop. In May this year we collected a vehicle for a customer (who we also knew outside of work as more of an aquaintance, but unfortunately we don't know where he lives) and proceeded to remove the front bumper and front wings as instructed, prior to doing the repairs. In the meantime, we also carried out some some work to another of his vehicles, replacing a damaged front bumper. He bought the bumper from ebay, being a standard one, which then had to be repaired and modified to fit correctly. He was given an approx price but made aware that modifications were needed. He was told how much when the job was finished and came into pay. He said he was very unhappy about the final bill and told that he wasn't actually being charged for all the work involved. When we went through the invoice with him he didn't want to listen. There was something of a standoff and he left, arranging for a recovery truck to collect both vehicles. Four days later he sent a vehicle transporter to collect the cars, as there was still an outstanding invoice on the second vehicle the driver only took one away.

A phone call from the customer followed asking why he wasn't allowed his vehicle, he was told there was an outstanding invoice, whereupon he told us to stick the bill, we were thieving f'ing b'ds he was not going to us any more of his money. He was told that the vehicle wasn't leaving until it had been paid for and that storage charges would be added, as per terms and conditions (displayed in reception and on all invoices!) He then became very agitated and made threats that he could "do things". He was told that if he was going to persist in making threats the phone call would be terminated and the police informed. He still carried on, at which point the call was terminated. It immediately rang again, and he was on the other end "I haven't finished with you yet" at which point it was put on speaker phone as we were all shocked at this outburst (the bill in question was for £192.50!!! for three hours collection and removal of bumper and wings!) When he realised he was on speaker phone he said "Very f'ing clever" and hung up.

We have heard nothing from him since - we have tried contacting him via email, but the original one was bounced back, and we don't know if he has received subsequent ones. Trying to find his address has been difficult and he doesn't answer his phone.

It is now approaching 5 months since this event - basically, his £192.50 bill is approaching £1,700 with the storage charges added (£10 per day). We know that he cannot store this vehicle anywhere so feel that we have been used as temporary storage. I know insurance companies are willing to pay £15 per day, so we feel that we are not taking advantage of him.

We really could do with some advice as we are seriously considering selling his car under the Provision of Torts (Iterference with Goods) Act 1977. Can we do this, I really don't feel we are being too hasty. At the end of the day we still have to pay insurance, rent and other overheads and cannot provide free indefinite parking for him, and he also owes us for the work undertaken. It is now sitting here with virtually no front end, and is basically only good for parts.

Our accountant thinks we are on very sticky ground should we sell, though other traders say we are within our rights to recoup our debt.

If this post is not allowed please could someone pm me with any reply - but also let this serve as a warning to consumer's that we smaller services don't do these things lightly!

Ingrid · 28th November 2007, 13:47

I would like to add that he is probably unaware of the extent of the storage charges, as we do not know where he lives and the vehicle is unregistered so we can't contact DVLA.

I have monthly storage charge invoices in his file, he was made aware of the terms and conditions prior to collecting the first vehicle, and he was verbally told them in the phone conversation.

He is an ex car salesman for a prestige main dealer so should be fully aware of the situation, just not necessarily how much!

How much of the onus is on us to locate him and make him aware? He knows where we are as he has made a number of visits prior to asking us to do his cars, he knows our website and contact details, including email address. We just need help and clarification. We don't have a solicitor as we have never needed one until now, and we don't really know who to use. I have browsed round this forum for some time but not felt the need to post before.

Zamzara · 28th November 2007, 23:17

You can't sell the vehicle as you are holding it against his will. If you don't want to store it then hand it back to him, and sue him for the unpaid bill.

I also think you are on dodgy ground with the storage charges, as again you are holding the vehicle against his will rather than providing a service. The term adding the charges is at serious risk of being challenged as unfair, and also of not being incorporated into the contract if it was merely displayed somewhere and not brought to his attention.

Goldlady · 28th November 2007, 23:30

How much is the car worth?

Ingrid · 29th November 2007, 09:46

Hi Zamzara - you're the second person to suggest that we are holding the vehicle against his will! We asked him for payment on 17th July and told him how much the bill was. He became very threatening (feeling he had been stitched up on the previous job - £500 to prepare, repair, modify, paint and fit a fibreglass front bumper, plus mesh and a battery I wouldn't consider to be unfair at all! He was originally told it would be approx £350, but when it turned up it had been damaged in transit. It wa a standard bumper and required modifying to fit round the intercooler and pipework) He denies the damaged although we showed him it as soon as the bumper had arrived.

He was well aware of storage charges as he had been told of these on his previous job he had done, which he also took his time in paying. Highlighting these terms & conditions prompted him to call in and pay! Unfortunately this hasn't happened second time round. The service we are providing is secure storage!

We feel he is taking advantage of the fact that we have the space that he doesn't! Having the vehicle here has meant that it has been in the way, we have had to move it a number of times, it has been kept inside therefore he has had secure storage. He has made no attempt to contact us at all to collect other than back in July - why should we not charge? The charges are put in place to stop customers from this practice - we don't want a vehicle here indefinitely. If something happens to it it is our responsibility!! Besides which, the work hasn't been paid for - surely if he has an issue he should pay then sue us!

The car itself is difficult to value - it is an unregistered imported vehicle. It has never had an MOT, never had a numberplate designated, etc. It now has no front bumper and no front wings. We stopped work on it as soon as he made it clear that he was not happy and wasn't going to give us any more money.

As I said, we are a small bodyshop with a good reputation until this episode. He has been badmouthing us, telling people to be ware of dishonest traders, because he feels he was overcharged, but that really wasn't the case at all. We have had our business for nearly 20 years and have never come across someone as angry and aggressive as this guy. He says he "knows people" and he knows where we live.

rambo · 29th November 2007, 19:27

I used to run a repair garage with my dad, mostly land rovers and classic cars, some customers want a complete rebuild for nothing.
My advice is to always ask the garage worst case senario, that way you won't be shocked at the final bill.
Sometimes removing a simple nut/bolt can take ages and end up costing more, but a good garage should point out this can happen and make you aware of it.

rambo · 29th November 2007, 19:28

Also, and this is going to sound racist, the foriegn customers are usaully the worst.

Ingrid · 29th November 2007, 22:20

This guy isn't foreign - but he is local, local to us and very full of his own self importance! He asked us to collect the car and "repair the front end". He didn't ask a price for this car - we assumed he wanted us to do it because of our reputation for good work. We are also known for being a bit pricey, but that what we do is worth it! With hindsight we believe he is arrogant enough to think that he could get away with what he is doing.

Anyway, the car sits here incomplete as we have stopped work on it after he told us we were not getting any more money from him. Technically speaking he is now in breach of contract as he commissioned a job, we made the workshop space available and we're not obviously going to carry on knowing we're not getting paid!!

Anyway, found this on Trading Standards website -

Torts (Interference with Goods) Act 1977 Section 12
Occasionally consumers fail to collect their goods after having them repaired or forget to pick up dry-cleaning.
This Section sets out what action a trader should take to get the goods collected and makes it clear what he/she can do if they are not.
It is sufficient to have a notice which is easily visible to consumers, stating how long the trader will keep goods after repair and an intention to dispose of them after this date. Any time period would need to be reasonable.
If no notice is displayed, the trader may need to send a registered letter to the consumer specifying that the goods are ready for collection and from where. It also should state the amount owing. Additional notification must also be given if the trader intends to sell or dispose of the goods after a certain date and how additional proceeds from the sale can be collected.

We also ran it by a solicitor today who told us, over the phone, that if he has an issue with the bill he has to settle it and then take us to court. She also said that we were within our rights to charge him storage as it is part of our Terms & Conditions, which he has on the back of his first invoice, and we sent him a private message on a forum he frequents advising him of the storage charges. These are also displayed in our Reception with a fluorescent notice at the top drawing customers' attention to them.

We shall be writing to him, as we have managed to find his address through some photos we found, and informing him of his revised bill. I am expecting a very heated call from him and maybe a visit!!!! This means more sleepless nights!

Zamzara · 29th November 2007, 23:41

Is he a consumer or business customer?

Ingrid · 30th November 2007, 10:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zamzara

Is he a consumer or business customer?

Can you elaborate please? I think I know what you mean.

Zamzara · 30th November 2007, 16:26

If he's a consumer then your storage charges are very likely an unfair term. Unless he's asking you to keep the vehicle, they're not so much a storage charge as a daily penalty for disputing the bill. The same if you sell it: it would be a punitive measure in retaliation for him not paying. If you can't afford to store it, give it back.

Ingrid · 30th November 2007, 16:48

Yes, he is a consumer. The bill he disputed is on a different vehicle of his we repaired and subsequently had transported away. He also wanted to take this one away. Surely as we had undertaken work for him we are entitled to expect payment. He isn't disputing the bill for this vehicle - he told us we're not getting any more of his money. He had initially asked us to carry out the removal and replacement of the front bumper and wings. As he had told us we were not getting any more of his money we therefore stopped work on it, as we had already put labour and fuel costs into the job collecting it in the first place. That's all we asked him to pay.

He has not, in nearly 5 months, contacted us to arrange payment and/or collection! We know he is still about as he lives locally and we have mutual friends, who we do not wish to draw into any of this.

Boro · 3rd December 2007, 03:50

To dispose of the vehicle you are going to need to give him written notification setting out a reasonable deadline for him to pay and collect, its worth sending this recorded delivery (so you can prove if need be at a later date) due to the size of the bill i would give him 30 days notice, if he chooses to ignore this (and you know from tracking the letter that he has received it) then i would think you have taken reasonable steps to contact him and resolve the situation and can then dispose of it, fairest way would probably be through auction although you probably wont get all of what you are owed, any money over what you are owed should be returned to him, its not a nice situation to be in i know but you cant store it forever so your going to have to find his address somehow be it through friends or tracing him via the web

Rob S · 4th December 2007, 11:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zamzara

If he's a consumer then your storage charges are very likely an unfair term. Unless he's asking you to keep the vehicle, they're not so much a storage charge as a daily penalty for disputing the bill. The same if you sell it: it would be a punitive measure in retaliation for him not paying. If you can't afford to store it, give it back.

It's normal policy for garages to charge a storage charge for vehicles stored on their premises when the customer has not collected the vehicle within a reasonable time scale. Most garages I have used allow up to 7 days before they will start to add storage charges.

As for the situation with the customer having failed to pay the bill for work carried out, the garage is within their rights to hold on to the vehicle until they have been paid for work carried out.

The issue here is whether or not they can add the storage charges in the above circumstances. My personal belief is that they can. The customer has refused to pay the bill for the work carried out and he has made no effort to resolve the situation. The subsequent storage charges are a direct result of the customers failure to deal effectively with the dispute.

Zamzara · 7th December 2007, 17:34

I agree that if the customer is refusing to pay the bill as opposed to genuinely disputing it, that does change the balance of fairness.

I managed to find this case:

Morris v. Beaconsfield Motors CA 24-7-2001

The court of appeal ruled that storage fees were not enforceable without contractual provision for them, but of course in this case there is contractual provision (assuming the term is incorporated, and is held to be fair.)

It's also worth noting from the above that the lien applies only to the repair bill, not the storage charges. So if the customer pays the repair bill but not for the storage, the vehicle must be released and the storage charges pursued as an ordinary debt.

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