Bought 6 month old car and have now noticed damage

[Jeeman]

4 weeks ago my wife bought a 6 month old Fiesta from a car supermarket on finance.

On first sight everything seems fine with the car but the other morning when the sun was hitting the car in a certain way I noticed that the front of the rear wheel arch seemed out of shape. On closer inspection you can see small dimples like it has been beaten out from the inside. After telling myself that maybe it might have been knocked slightly in a car park and not to worry about it I then noticed that on other Fiestas they have the model type shown on the boot (Zetec, Studio, Style etc) but hers does not. So I ran my finger over the area and felt a roughness where it used to be and that it has been removed. After viewing at the right angle I could just about see that it said zetec but hers is a STUDIO. Now this does concern me slightly.

I really do not want this car anymore, I haven't even told my wife yet as she is in early pregnancy and I dont want to cause her any stress. I have not spoken to the garage yet as I wanted to know my rights first...

Can anyone offer me any advice on this?

[tiglet]

Usually, a car which is "bought as seen" is exactly that.

However, are you concerned that this is a cut and shut? if so, i would give trading standards a call in the morning and certainly do not let your wife or anyone else drive it in the meantime.

[gwc1000]

Hi, it does sound as though the car may have had some damage to the rear end, but, it may only be minor and nothing to worry about. I personally would 'phone the previous owner and ask them for some info. I have done this many times and often people don't want to discuss their former car, but if you emphasise you have no issue with them at all and are just interested in the car's history for your own peace of mind most people will talk. Occasionally they will just tell you to get lost and put the 'phone down on you, but don't take it personally!

[118:8]

What type of finance? Fixed sum loan? Hire purchase? Conditional Sale? PCP?

Have you run an HPI check? Bear in mind that if it was an insurance right off the traders can still sell it and not have to tell you (unless it's the top two bands).

Get an independent to examine it and if it is a 'cut and shut' then ask them for a replacement or refund.

Cut and shut is legally two cars and selling the car(s) as a single car they have misrepresented the sale. Not only that it's not safe and not legal.

[avo5]

[quote=118:8;1263301]What type of finance? Fixed sum loan? Hire purchase? Conditional Sale? PCP?

Have you run an HPI check? Bear in mind that if it was an insurance right off the traders can still sell it and not have to tell you (unless it's the top two bands).

Absolute rubbish! Firstly, all vehicles categorised as CAT A or CAT B can NEVER be returned to public roads and can only be broken for spares. Secondly, motor traders are legally obliged to inform customers if a vehicle they are selling is CAT C or CAT D – it’s the law!

[118:8]

I was under the impression that a trader did not have an legal obligation to tell a consumer a car was in an insurance claim but I’m probably wrong. I think they should have a legal obligation because when the consumer tries to sell it or trade it in the value is reduced considerably.

Can you link me to the bit of law that says a Trader has to tell a consumer car was an insurance claim for my future reference thanks!


http://www.tradingstandards.gov. uk/cgi-bin/calitem.cgi?file=ADV0003-0100.txt
Insurance claims, accident and repair records
There is no law requiring traders to inform purchasers that cars have been subject to insurance claims or have been ‘written off’ by insurance companies. Traders have no legal obligation to tell purchasers about past repair work. If you ask the trader about these matters, he must answer truthfully or tell you if he doesn’t know.

[gwc1000]

A Motor Trader is NOT obliged to inform a purchaser that a vehicle has been an insurance total loss (Cat C and Cat D) unless the purchaser asks, then he must answer truthfully.
However, if a vehicle has been repaired incompetentlyand is in a dangerous condition to drive then he could be prosecuted for selling an unroadworthy vehicle, total loss or not.
I have to disagree about your comment on a "cut and shut". It is not illegal, and isn't two cars. It is one car with a substantial amount replaced with secondhand parts from a donor vehicle. Remember Q plates which meant a vehicle made up of parts from different vehicles and the year of manufacture could not be ascertained.

[118:8]

I was under the impression that cut and shut was illegal as it is regarded as un-roadworthy (Road Traffic Acts 1972 and 1988. Imagine how a car made of two chassis welded together would survive in a crash? The exception would be stretch limos but they are specially strengthened by the manufacturer. This legislation is also enforced by Trading Standards.

Those Q plates are usually used for self build/kit cars and would not make a cut and shut legal. Once a cut and shut car has been discovered it is Q plated immediately while under investigation but it’s still not legal.

The DVLA would not permit the re-registration of a cut and shut car. The cut and shut would be incorrectly registered with DVLA as one car, and so would be registered wrongly if the number plates from the other end were used. If Jeemans car was not a Q plate and was discovered to be ‘cut and shut’ it would not be legal.

[gwc1000]

Hi, I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. Q plates were not only used for kit cars. They were also used in cases of an insurance total loss that had been repaired from several donor vehicles, I should know because I have owned some.
I would suggest that you are allowed to replace as much of the chassis of a vehicle as is needed to complete a crash repair. The fact that the replacement metal came from another car is incidental. Or, in the case of corrosion the same would apply. Otherwise, where do you draw the line? Anything more than the boot floor is illegal? half of the floor? or just one front footwell? Or just one outer sill? As long as the repair is completed to a high standard I suggest the repair would be legal, unless you could point me to a legal reference stating otherwise. The actual identity of the car would never change. It will not be classed as two vehicles. I have been a motor trader for nearly thirty years now and in my time I have purchased some cars where the complete body has been replaced with a secondhand bodyshell. The vehicle retains it's original registration number but the log book has to be changed to denote the chassis number change. DVLA are quite happy with this, and it is still the original car, not two. If you look at a V5, under section 7 there is the provision to inform DVLA of changes to a vehicle including chassis number change.
I have mistakenly purchased two or three cut and shuts in my time, only discovering them when getting the car up on a lift. In all cases the workmanship in the welding has been of an incredibly high standard and even though the MoT tester was aware of the situation could find nothing wrong structurally with them and they were duly MoT'd.
My opinion is that a cut and shut is legal. I have never heard it said in the Motor Trade that it is illegal, only undesirable and unwanted. As I said if you have reference to law that states otherwise then please post it here because I would be interested to read it. The only issue with them is the quality of the work. If a vehicle can be proved to be dangerous due to poor welding then that is another story. Then there could be a prosecution for selling an unroadworthy vehicle, not for selling a "cut and shut"

[gwc1000]

Hi, I have taken this directly from DVLA's website which has specific details of two cars welded together. They don't seem to think it is illegal. However they are now giving them Q plates.





Registering a radically altered vehicle


The registration of radically altered vehicles covers vehicles which are substantially altered from their original specification, but which are not kit conversions. In these cases the vehicle components used from the original vehicle will be given a numerical value in order to retain the original registration mark.

Allocating a vehicle registration mark

The vehicle must score eight or more points to retain the original registration mark. If less than eight points are scored or a second-hand or modified chassis or altered monocoque bodyshell is used, an enhanced single vehicle approval (ESVA), single vehicle approval (SVA) or motorcycle single vehicle approval (MSVA) certificate will be required to register the vehicle. A 'Q' prefix registration number will be allocated.

Scoring components

The following values will be allocated to the major components used:

• chassis or body shell (body and chassis as one unit - monocoque ie direct replacement from the manufacturer) (original or new) = 5 points
• suspension = 2 points
• axles = 2 points
• transmission = 2 points
• steering assembly = 2 points
• engine = 1 point

Where there is evidence that two vehicles have been welded together to form one (ie 'cut and shut') a 'Q' mark will be allocated. ESVA, SVA or MSVA will be required.

Vehicle identification number

This is a legal requirement for all vehicles used on the public highway to carry a vehicle identity number (VIN). This may be lost when a vehicle is substantially rebuilt, particularly in the case of kit vehicles where the chassis or bodyshell may not have been stamped by the manufacturer. In such circumstances the DVLA local office will allocate a replacement VIN. The DVLA local office will issue an authorisation letter and registration will not take effect until the Agency receives confirmation that the vehicle has been stamped with the correct identity.

Registration of vehicles without identity

The following procedures must be followed when making application for the registration and first licensing of a vehicle without identity:

• you should use your nearest DVLA local office
• applications from outside a DVLA local office's catchment area will be refused
• you will be asked to produce documentation confirming your name and address, the link below gives more information

• How to register your vehicle and identity checks

• you will be asked to produce official receipts from identifiable suppliers for the components used in a rebuild. The authenticity of receipts may be checked. They will be stamped by the DVLA local office before return

All vehicles without identity (VIN and registration mark) will be inspected by DVLA and referred to the police. Applicants who rebuild vehicles and can prove the origins of the components need not be concerned. However, if the police believe a vehicle to be stolen DVLA will refuse to register and it may be impounded.

Be aware

Prospective purchasers of vehicles without identity are advised to exercise caution. If a vehicle is suspected of being stolen both it and the money paid for it may be lost.

More useful links

[118:8]

Hi

I got my information from the HPI check website.
This does not mean that what it says on the website is correct and I understand what you mean that as long as it’s safe and roadworthy then not illegal.

http://www.hpicheck.com/newfrontend/glossary.jsp#_cutnshut

Cut 'n' Shut

Cut 'n' shut is the term used for a car that is made up of two different vehicles - usually both 'write-offs' - where the back end of one is welded to the front of another.
Often done with considerable skill, the vehicle may look like new but it is likely to be unroadworthy and could prove lethal in an accident. The practice is illegal and the car could be worthless when you come to sell it. The exceptions are 'stretched' vehicles made by specialist coachbuilders.